@wtfe said in Make MSB great again!:
There was maybe once a small window in which a site could have been built that was WORA for adults. That ship has long since sailed
If that genuinely turns out to be the consensus and the majority here feels like they are not obligated to ever change and grow up...LOL, good luck with that. It's been a trip MSB, but I'm too old for this shit.
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I see nothing wrong with an Advertisement being a one-off post with no replies allowed, and a companion thread for the "reviews" of and commentary about it. The questions are:
Who begins that second post? The advertiser or an admin type here?
Where does it go? With the Hogpit an opt-in section of the site, you can't just put a review/commentary post there, so it probably needs to go somewhere that's openly accessible to anyone, with an account or not.
But, what about when things come up in there that would make it more fitting to go to the Hogpit? Because, that will happen. Criticism does not always remain constructive and there will be very good reasons to go to a place such as "This game is fucked and here's why." Does an admin type then need to create an offshoot post that redirects into the Hogpit?
As for anything else at the moment, I'm not sure what to suggest. I'd like to see less vitriol from some people toward others simply because of opinions on OCs/FCs or what types of characters someone likes to play, less trolling of others as well, but I realize that's like pissing into the wind. I come here to see what's going on with various games, find out if there's anything I should be aware of good or bad, and discuss problems when they arise, not get into petty squabbles about what people like to play.
@wizz I personally wouldn't do anything based on someone else's opinion but formulate my own.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
@lithium
Iiiiiiiii wasn't suggesting you or anyone do otherwise. I was just saying that if people think that the behavior we've seen here over the last few months is not only acceptable but somehow appropriate or ideal for the community and that nothing should change (or...can change? Which...what the actual fuck), I find that attitude more than a little sad, I've kind of had my fill and I'm ready to move on.
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@wizz It's appropriate for the hogpit. Not for anywhere else to be completely honest.
We can be supportive. We can be cruel. We can tear each other apart. We can build each other up. We can be a support group. We can be a rabid mob.
It comes and goes, if you are getting nothing out of participating on the forum, that's understandable. I take breaks every now and again myself.
It's not all bad however, we've had some great conversations and thrown around some awesome ideas before.
As to whether or not this place is worth it? Depends on what you're here for, and what you want to get out of it.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
@wizz I've been on boards a lot more toxic than this that turned a corner and became positive, and usually it wasn't like some big thing or clear cut push, just people finding that shit was getting a little old and starting to be a little more constructive. I have a lot of really mixed feelings about the forums, and I think they could be more useful. I don't think it would take much.
@wizz said in Make MSB great again!:
I was just saying that if people think that the behavior we've seen here over the last few months is not only acceptable but somehow appropriate or ideal for the community and that nothing should change (or...can change?
Why would this thread exist if that was either acceptable or appropriate? @WTFE can have his opinion, but I don't happen to agree with it. If I did I wouldn't be here either.
The behavior has been fine. The reactions to it have been... over the top.
@wizz said in Make MSB great again!:
@wtfe said in Make MSB great again!:
There was maybe once a small window in which a site could have been built that was WORA for adults. That ship has long since sailed
If that genuinely turns out to be the consensus and the majority here feels like they are not obligated to ever change and grow up...LOL, good luck with that. It's been a trip MSB, but I'm too old for this shit.
Obligated? I think everybody here barring a few dissidents wishes things were otherwise.
Things aren't otherwise, however. This is WORA with a fancier, hipster piece of software instead of dull, plodding, old, reliable software. Nothing has changed. The DNA of the very first WORA still runs all through this place.
Is there room somewhere for a grown-ups version of WORA? Sure. MSB just isn't it and I'm pretty sure will never be it.
@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:
Why would this thread exist if that was either acceptable or appropriate?
Why would the behavior have persisted for months if the behavior was neither acceptable nor appropriate? The community not only tolerates it, it encourages it. GIFs of popcorn being eaten as the flames are tossed around. (And I'm not even in the Hog Pit.)
I remember the last time a thread like this was posted, I was ridiculed for suggesting that discussions should be less negative. Because apparently "civil discourse" equates to "singing kumbaya" in many peoples' minds. "Enforcing community standards" equates to "cruel censorship".
The community has proven time and again what it wants this place to be, by what it is. Expecting that same community to suddenly change its tune seems beyond optimistic. But I would love it if it happened.
@faraday Why does it need to be sudden?
But everyone gets flamed on MSB. When we are it feels like it's the consensus; that's not necessarily the case. The community in general is braver when riding a bandwagon, which goes well beyond this forum.
There's more potential in what we're doing than what we're seeing.
Productive forum discussion is strongly linked with active moderation. No one here has time to be that active moderator.
So we get what we get.
@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:
But everyone gets flamed on MSB.
I don't disagree. The fact that you (and most of the people here) don't see that as a problem is kinda my point.
@lithium said in Make MSB great again!:
@wizz It's appropriate for the hogpit. Not for anywhere else to be completely honest.
I don't disagree. I don't particularly like the hog pit but whatever, it's an outlet that people clearly want/need and I don't think that will change. I just think the bleed over has been absolutely ridiculous lately.
We can be supportive. We can be cruel. We can tear each other apart. We can build each other up. We can be a support group. We can be a rabid mob.
It comes and goes, if you are getting nothing out of participating on the forum, that's understandable. I take breaks every now and again myself.
It's not all bad however, we've had some great conversations and thrown around some awesome ideas before.
I absolutely agree, I am not trying to say this place is some sort of horrible shithole, I've been here since the beginning and really enjoyed my time both lurking and participating in the past.
As to whether or not this place is worth it? Depends on what you're here for, and what you want to get out of it.
That's the heart of it. I don't think my expectations are lining up, so this is a great conversation to finally have.
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@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:
@faraday Why does it need to be sudden?
I think part of what she was saying quoted you directly (c.f., censorship). You're now the person who sets the tone for MSB. Its changes or lack thereof are directly and indirectly because of your decisions.
But everyone gets flamed on MSB.
When Wora finally died and @Glitch decided to make a replacement, that wasn't true at first. It started becoming more true and we made the Hog Pit specifically for that (edit) we started pushing and splitting more threads that direction. It continued being true and the Hog Pit became opt-in only. All this work has become undone because it's been allowed to. All it takes is a few bad actors.
The community in general is braver when riding a bandwagon, which goes well beyond this forum.
Who on earth thinks that this forum represents the community? I mean, besides Rasheem. You are the administrator of The Mu* Soapbox; anything more than that is due to how people see MSB and is a bonus, not the point.
This particular forum's community is also much shittier when riding a bandwagon. The bandwagon that brought us here was on fire, and more than a few people gleefully throwing lit matches around. If a civil but sole person tries to convince people to put the matches away, god help them because they're going to get the ire of hate and quite probably be lit on fire themselves.
There's more potential in what we're doing than what we're seeing.
Bravery doesn't mean intelligence nor righteousness. Potential is a sheathed blade; what will it be used for?
@wizz said in Make MSB great again!:
I absolutely agree, I am not trying to say this place is some sort of horrible shithole, I've been here since the beginning and really enjoyed my time both lurking and participating in the past.
When ES asked me if I wanted to keep this place running - the alternative was shutting it down - it came down to a simple realization for me; the hobby needs a place like this. Well, it already exists. It's here, we might as well have it.
The reason I care about the forum is that it's here. It gives us an identity across games, and a place to discuss things both in and out of any single MU*'s context. It lets us keep in touch with old friends, most gathered in one place, and have conversations about them outside our friends' echo chambers. I use the forum to communicate with folks I haven't played with in years, folks use it who haven't played in years themselves, and I know there are others no longer in the hobby who might return - and it'll be there when they do.
Do I like the way we act toward each other sometimes? Hell no, of course I don't. If that means I'm a kumbaya-singing fool then so be it. I think we can improve, and I hope we will. I do need your help to do that.
@arkandel
What do you mean by help? What are you asking for and what are your expectations?
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@wizz said in Make MSB great again!:
@arkandel
What do you mean by help? What are you asking for and what are your expectations?
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
I think, in all of this, some of us are losing sight of the way this forum is good to each other. The Hog Pit gets nasty. Ads get flamed. Civil discourse often gets into circle jerky, arguing against the person posts.
But look at Tastes Less Gamey. It is obvious that we can be a friendly community there. We make jokes, share our lives. Hell, we have helped someone move and someone recover from a car wreck.
We're not all bad, is all I am asking people to keep in mind.
And then she went on a multi post tirade about how some of us are shitty human beings! But I don't regret donating. I can feel it, this is the time things turn around. This is the day we start our diets, and jog before work.
@wtfe said in Make MSB great again!:
There was maybe once a small window in which a site could have been built that was WORA for adults. That ship has long since sailed
If that genuinely turns out to be the consensus and the majority here feels like they are not obligated to ever change and grow up...LOL, good luck with that. It's been a trip MSB, but I'm too old for this shit.
