Regarding administration on MSB

[bored]

@sparks So 'X is a serial sexual harasser' belongs in the Hog Pit because it's a personal attack on a staffer?

[Meg]

Guys, can we avoid the examples with that guy in this thread, please. I'd love you forever if you did.

[bored]

@meg Sorry! I'll even go an edit. I just meant to put the point on it that it's a real thing that happened, and this argument that they're offering is basically serving this guy's interest.

This is, again, why we need some kind of middle ground where bad things can be said about people... where there is substance being offered, not just bile.

[Thenomain]

@bored said in Regarding administration on MSB:

This is, again, why we need some kind of middle ground where bad things can be said about people... where there is substance being offered, not just bile.

This.

I don't feel that an upvote is enough.

[Arkandel]

@sunny said in Regarding administration on MSB:

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PEOPLE DISCUSSING THINGS ON THE REASONABLE LEVEL ARE NOT BEING REASONABLE.

What if..
What if...
What if...

I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOUR WHAT IF.

I don't appreciate the all caps.

Can we please tone it down some?

[Ganymede]

@bored said in Regarding administration on MSB:

This is, again, why we need some kind of middle ground where bad things can be said about people... where there is substance being offered, not just bile.

Okay, I can get on board with this.

If you would put forth "standards" that could apply to this middle ground, what would they be?

[surreality]

@ganymede With the "X is a serial sexual harasser" example... well, on one hand, you have that, and that's easily construed as a personal attack.

"There are multiple accounts that X has sexually harassed them, you can find the logs/evidence/accounts here: <link> <link> <link>" (where the links may be in a different area of the forum, pastebin, or whatever, obviously).

The important message is conveyed and there's backup to it, so it's not just talking out of the wrong orifice, and it's not name-calling.

[Ganymede]

@surreality

I think the "there must be backup" standard is problematic. I'm of the opinion that many incidences of sexual harassment aren't backed up by logs or other "acceptable" forms of "evidence." Yet the fact that a player has been sexually harassed on a game is a very valid criticism, backed up or not.

In full disclosure, someone approached one of us three about some place where people could report harassment and such, and yet not face immediate, vicious reprisal about it. We had no idea what we could do. This proposal of a middle-ground between "Mildly Constructive" and "Hog Pit" may fit that bill, so I'm rather interested in it.

[ThatGuyThere]

@alzie said in Regarding administration on MSB:

So you need rules to tell you how to act like well adjusted human beings? We have a word for that.

The difference in what constitutes "Well adjusted" behavior is not the same at all across the country let alone the world. Where I live depending on the inflection being called a "son of a bitch" is either a high compliment or a invitation to throw fists, where I grew up it was an insult though not a severe one.
Since moderation has become a thing it is very much on the moderators to provide the cultural norms much like it is on staff to provide them for a game.

[Ghost]

@surreality well, then perhaps alongside the actual serial harassers, people shouldn't use the Hog Pit as a means to conduct mob justice warfare against people theyre upset with, or were inconvenienced by, or don't like their poses, or descriptions, or PB choices, or differences of opinion, or choice in games, or opinions on how their apologies are worded?

The point I am trying to make is this: The Hog Pit has become (or is becoming) the same kind of brutalistic hyperbole zone that existed on WORA. The stigma surrounding the zone itself promotes these gamers to bash and insult each other and find reasons to create strife within these games that is wholly OOC based.

There is definitely a way to be constructive and objective about some of these behaviors on games without utilizing this board into a never-ending court of public opinion from which people leverage their ability to craft an argument (or popularity) to damage people who may in fact be a target of predatory behavior.

This can be done without the venom, and can be done without the knee-jerk need to attack people like Ganymede or Auspice for differences of opinions or assumed malicious intent.

There is a difference between a miscommunication and malicious intent, but in many ways, the Hog Pit mentality doesnt seem to understand this sometimes. Maliciousness does not undo maliciousness, and I think many of us are adult enough, mature enough, and objective enough to know the difference.

We would be better off to move away from this mentality.

[Sunny]

@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I don't appreciate the all caps.

Can we please tone it down some?

Yep. I'm out, at least of this topic, probably the board. Good luck.

[Meg]

I am also out. Not that I was contributing that much since my initial responses, but I think it's better if I step away.

I think if this is the way it is going to be presented, and going to keep being presented especially as more and more people step in, that there was some knee-jerk attack around a harmless misunderstanding that was, honestly, hurtful to me, then I am going to have to be honest that I am never going to be happy with the situation. I don't want people to feel like I am moving goal posts on them, and I can understand that can be frustrating, so it is better that I leave.

[bored]

@ganymede I mean, basically what you quoted or what I said in prior posts? To vaguely summarize, uh, I'd like an area where:

• Criticism needn't be constructive ('Spying on players is bad!' <- not constructive, but OK!)

• It is OK to criticize specific people for specific behavior on-game ('Look at these corrupt staffers doing X, Y, Z' 'Look at this creeper creepin', etc).

• That said, I can live without pure raw bile ('So and so is hitler,' current @Vorpal / @Tempest derail, etc != OK)

• Content/derail moderation should only really happen when there's clearly no relation to the game/situation in discussion ('I hate fucking Vampires' 'Uh that's nice this is a Magic Space Ponies thread') not to prevent people from following natural threads of conversation ('Hey we're not talking about my NPC-as-PC abuse, we're talking about XP spends!'' 'Sorry bub, you play, you take your chances')

• Violators of any of the any of the above generally be dealt with as to (re)move the minimum of content (maybe already being done, but worth saying)

I also really want to stress that it's fine for us also to embrace higher general standards. It's all about balancing things. If we have a public critical area, Constructive can probably be more moderated, and Hog can really be more focused on the meme-laden shitposting, which would seemingly make the @faraday etc crowd happy (and even help avoid, say, the blow up I had with @surreality - she'd have a space for positive-only feedback, etc).

[Alzie]

@sunny said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I don't appreciate the all caps.

Can we please tone it down some?

Yep. I'm out, at least of this topic, probably the board. Good luck.

[Ganymede]

@alzie

C'mon, man.

Not here.

---

@bored

I see how those guidelines differ from what we've got, so let's see if we can't digest them and spit out clear standards and examples that people can refer to.

I don't hear a lot of disagreement with your idea, so I can only presume that it is well-supported.

[ThatGuyThere]

@ghost
I think you are on the right track, but not with the fake Staff 1 and 2 thing but create separate mod accounts. For example ArkMod, GanyMod and AuspiceMod, there is a good reason every game I have been on except early Dark Metal has kept staff bits separate from staff PC bits, even if it is the same person giving the same answer either way there is a difference in the authoritativeness presented. It also in the specific case of the boards solves the MOD Voice issue. If it is from the mod account then it is Mod voice. If not then it isn't.
Yes there will be the occasional mav post just like there are mavs on games but I think that would resolve 90+ percent of the is this mod or poster talking right off the bat.

[bored]

@ganymede Cool 'nuff.

[Ganymede]

@thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I think you are on the right track, but not with the fake Staff 1 and 2 thing but create separate mod accounts.

I don't believe that separating accounts is going to accomplish anything. I believe that, wherever I post, I will carry my hat on my in some way, shape, or form. I acknowledge this, and that may mean I need to refrain from doing things that I used to do before.

[ThatGuyThere]

@ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I think you are on the right track, but not with the fake Staff 1 and 2 thing but create separate mod accounts.

I don't believe that separating accounts is going to accomplish anything. I believe that, wherever I post, I will carry my hat on my in some way, shape, or form. I acknowledge this, and that may mean I need to refrain from doing things that I used to do before.

That is fair, honestly I look at moding a forum like being staff on a game or a police officer in RL. It is pretty much who you are at all times.
Since it is an authority that is possessed with every most that is made, baring separate account with different permissions, ideally it is also a responsibility that should similarly be maintained.

[Ghost]

@ganymede @ThatGuyThere and to agree and build upon, I touched upon having some negative feelings when I said it earlier. Let's be entirely honest here.

GanyMod is no different from @Ganymede and said Mod would have to endure cries of bias based on preexisting assumptions about their personalities or assumed bias.

Staff1 would result in a whodunit scenario where the identity of Staff1, due to Oz being behind the curtain, would be scrutinized and have preexisting assumptions about their personalities or assumed bias applied to their decisions as moderators.

This is a societal problem based on intensity and an environment more skewed towards applying fault rather than constructively discussing difference.

People who want to reach a peaceful resolution have their disagreements privately or avoid them altogether. We are all very aware why people air grievances publicly, rather than privately.

It's because, on some level, public humiliation and punishment is wished for if the mea culpa isn't to one's approval.

My advice is to close the Hog Pit and moderate this board with the intent of cooperation and teamwork rather than punishment and feces throwing.

People that cannot behave without that level of venom will move on. Those that can will adapt, and might find themselves enjoying this hobby more.