Regarding administration on MSB

[Meg]

@auspice Can we not escalate this into saying that? That someone having an issue with something makes it so that they have a vested interest in hurting someone or seeing them hurt?

[Ganymede]

@apos said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Yeah but so would, "LISTEN UP PLEBEIANS, MODERATOR HERE".

I was presuming people were reading this before anything I say.

I need that kind of excessive authority.

[Thenomain]

Addendum: Imagine this conversation happening about the staff of a game on that game. Consider that for a moment.

Consider the response we've been seeing lately, "I wouldn't play on a game where I didn't trust the staff."

Consider the people who are still here in spite of their opinion of staff.

I'll be kicking around in my head whether or not this is a dichotomy or the situations are different enough that the people who say the former but doing the latter are pushing the bounds of their own morality. Or whether or not the ability to come to a freer commons and insult the administration of it is why Wora/Soapbox is important for the community.

[saosmash]

I stand corrected. I misremembered what Auspice's passive aggressive sarcasm was. I withdraw that portion of my argument with apologies to the court.

[Meg]

@thenomain I will be moonwalking away again, and returning to deal with all of the shit I have to do offline, not considering /anything/ at all.

[saosmash]

@thenomain there's a difference between thinking that a staffer has made a mistake (or multiple mistakes) and finding them untrustworthy or unethical. Is that really the question here?

[Sunny]

@saosmash said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@thenomain there's a difference between thinking that a staffer has made a mistake (or multiple mistakes) and finding them untrustworthy or unethical. Is that really the question here?

Yeah, I have to chime in on this, too. I disagree with choices made, but I do not in any way think that any of the moderators here are unethical or untrustworthy.

[Thenomain]

@meg said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@thenomain I will be moonwalking away again, and returning to deal with all of the shit I have to do offline, not considering /anything/ at all.

And like any voluntary part of our life, leaving and coming back as the rest of our life dictates is a good thing.

--

@saosmash said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@thenomain there's a difference between thinking that a staffer has made a mistake (or multiple mistakes) and finding them untrustworthy or unethical. Is that really the question here?

Reading the thread in one go, I have a problem finding any real question. The only one I see consistently is "Should Auspice Be Admin", and I again posit the parallels between doing that on game and doing that on Soapbox, that should someone openly challenge admin's choices on a game they would be asked--sometimes quite unpolitely, sometimes mocked--to either stop it or leave.

The only mistake I find @Auspice making was telling people not to do something before anyone did so. The mistake created a cock-up cascade of people taking what to me was unreasonable offense to the warning because that warning came without any context, and even here people assume that a staffer is going to abuse their power if they don't completely trust them.

Staffing is hard. Quelle surprise.

So while some people say "this was a mistake" others are exposing those mistakes in detail and some others are questioning her status as Admin. Regardless of this range, staff here is being far more open than any game or other forum would have the patience to be.

We are lucky to have here.

[saosmash]

That wasn't what I thought the mistake was. I thought in this case that the error was giving credence to a complaint without any reality behind it, thereby loaning it legitimacy it might not otherwise have.

Warning against a MSB cabal to take down a game is like paying attention to sovereign citizens citing the uniform commercial code.

[Ganymede]

@saosmash said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I thought in this case that the error was giving credence to a complaint without any reality behind it, thereby loaning it legitimacy it might not otherwise have.

This is a reasonable conclusion, but it is true that, in the past, predecessors of this forum have gone to games to "raid" them, so to speak. There was talk of this earlier, which was dissuaded by Arkandel. To deny the possibility of a WORA cabal lurking here to commit nefarious things, however remote, is to deny that past.

So, I think it was reasonable to say, as an official statement or otherwise, that the vast, vast majority of us, if not all, do not support this behavior. Its placement is questionable, but I understand and support the sentiment behind the decision to say something.

[Thenomain]

@saosmash

That was a mistake, but I don't think it's what people in the thread were reacting to. After reading this thread I went to that thread to see what was going on and kind of rolled my eyes at the post (sorry Auspice; I know you intended to do well), then read the responses and my mind started filtering them together and the first thing that came to mind was Sayre's Law:

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake. That is why academic politics are so bitter.

I think that we, Mushers as a collective, want to create and push for our ability to gain agency, and some of us, especially those of us who have played WoD games forever, when anyone has even the slightest whiff of their agency being taken away, and that appearance of reduced agency is what I saw people reacting to.

Anyhow, that's what I saw, and that's mostly what I'm reacting to. That and the "sometimes people are not consistent" part, which shouldn't surprise me in the least but I still think it's worth noting when it happens.

As said earlier, you're not on that list, so #notallsaosmash.

[Kanye Qwest]

@auspice said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I understand you have a vested interest in seeing me hurt in some way, shape, or form

This right here is beyond ridiculous.

[mietze]

I would kind of hope that admin here don’t especially like the sentiment that because they’re not total psychos like they could be people should shut up and be grateful.

If this was the community standard, then every time someone posted something untoward or concerning about staff or player behavior here, people would be like “what are you bitching about, it’s not Spider. Be grateful it’s not her at least, you don’t have anything to complain about.”

The thing is, MSB unlike WORA does have a history of hands off, non chiding administration. Where modding has not taken a turn for the sarcastic. That is the standard that people are used to here, from a pragmatic perspective.

I don’t realky give a crap if things change (those I admit I was not at all impressed with the calling people stupid/children part and the doubling down of “well of course no one should apologize unless they want to”—which rather /is exactly/ the attitude/tactic that many game runners take to any misunderstanding/misstep and we all have seen it and know how easy it is to step into it too, at least anyone whose staffed for any length of time.

So honestly I don’t get the handwringing over the handwringing. It seems logical to expect that for the time being people are going to be wary. It’s like what, less than 8 weeks out?

[Roz]

@auspice said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@kanye-qwest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

she sarcastically labeled something MOD VOICE in another thread.

Factually incorrect.
I labeled something 'NOT MOD VOICE.'

This is also MSB. People are sarcastic at every turn.

It's really not surprising that people would expect mods to not be sarcastic or condescending about the actual modding part of their forum participation. I mean, I'm not sure what you expected to happen when people were expressing overt (and, yeah, aggressive) concern about the moderation changes and your response was to get sarcastic about it. I mean. The same negative response would happen on a MU* if a staffer did that.

[mietze]

And to clarify, I would not really have considered WORA to have administration at all (though I know there were keyholders.)

On MSB people have been banned for threatening and gross PMs and posts, admin have stepped in from time to time (but not really participated to the same degree personally).

And yet, they still had to deal with people freaking out over widgets or lack thereof, purpose (like when people quit because it wasn’t all free for all all the time). Perhaps people by complaining are expressing gratitude for that style of mostly hands off from neutral appearing folks? Dunno.

But it’s not like people didn’t fuss. It’s just...fussage happens. It’s really not special or exceptional, and honestly is pretty damn tame comparatively so maybe everyone admin and participant should be grateful to each other.

[Thenomain]

@mietze said in Regarding administration on MSB:

And to clarify, I would not really have considered WORA to have administration at all (though I know there were keyholders.)

On MSB people have been banned for threatening and gross PMs and posts, admin have stepped in from time to time (but not really participated to the same degree personally).

On Wora, people were banned for spamming and doxing. Really, those were the only things people were banned for, though Bane was locked into his own thread because it was easier than playing ban-a-mole with him. Everything else was just moved to a more appropriate area, usually with a note.

Wora was administered, but it also didn't try to be a discussion forum like MSB is trying to be.

MSB was originally opened as a place for people to go because there was nowhere else. From the way I understand it, it hasn't been until recently where anyone's tried to heavily administrate MSB, but I think it's worthwhile to support the experiment. Not blindly, no, but with care and understanding.

[bored]

@ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@saosmash said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I thought in this case that the error was giving credence to a complaint without any reality behind it, thereby loaning it legitimacy it might not otherwise have.

This is a reasonable conclusion, but it is true that, in the past, predecessors of this forum have gone to games to "raid" them, so to speak. There was talk of this earlier, which was dissuaded by Arkandel. To deny the possibility of a WORA cabal lurking here to commit nefarious things, however remote, is to deny that past.

I just can't agree with this. While the behavior may have happened, the idea that it really has much to do with the forum is still silly. There are cliques and groups of players here, and those groups may decide to disrupt games, but its not 'MSB' behind it, its the people. You'll never control that, which is part of what makes the post seem so idiotic and tone deaf.

Beyond that, by visibly denying it, your (collective) mod post has probably done more to boost the idea of a 'hive mind' and its ill-intent than any actual wrong people from the board have ever done. It looks like the sloppy, obviously guilty spin-doctoring you'd see on any TV news interview (or like one of the UH staff's 'No problems here folks!' bb-posts).

So, I think it was reasonable to say, as an official statement or otherwise, that the vast, vast majority of us, if not all, do not support this behavior. Its placement is questionable, but I understand and support the sentiment behind the decision to say something.

Bold mine. Did you guys actually discuss this and agree on it? Because the placement seems so obviously silly, and your wording makes it seem like it wasn't as much of a group decision as it's being presented as.

[Ganymede]

@bored said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Bold mine. Did you guys actually discuss this and agree on it? Because the placement seems so obviously silly, and your wording makes it seem like it wasn't as much of a group decision as it's being presented as.

The post was made between the time I learned of what was brewing on Stranger Than Fiction and when I responded to Arkandel and Auspice. It was discussed thereafter. It was not a unanimous decision.

I have already said that I'm not going to step in to moderate in the Hog Pit, and how I will moderate the Advertisement Thread. I would not have posted anything.

I can understand the rationale of a decision and find it reasonable even if I would have done something else that is also reasonable.

[Wolfs]

What I'm getting out of this latest blow-up is Auspice used MOD VOICE to tell people not to go troll a place, Tempest pitched a fit about it, and now here we are with another back-and-forth.

Is that about the long and short of it?

[Thenomain]

@wolfs

I'm getting more than a hint of "Auspice should have talked with the adults before posting anything" vibe, too, but being able to Twitter summarize earns you a pony.