Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.
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@testament said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
I don't think this should be relegated to the just the midwest politicians, speaking as someone from the midwest. Which is tangential to the topic being discussed
I mean, agreed, but those are specifically the ones that she cited, so that's why I used her (shared, not original apparently) example.
And while I suppose at the most extreme ends being opposed to the entitety of Israeli existence is probably anti-semitic, we often talk about the actions of a country's government by simply naming the country.
Most Chinese people are probably fine, but when we criticize China, we are really using that as a shorthand for the CCP and other tangential parties, not all billion Chinese people. I don't think that calling that post anti-semitism is a fair reading.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@cupcake I am well aware of the complexity of the idea. This is why I think we should err on the side of a cockup rather than conspiracy when it comes to a young person doing it once.
He/Him
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@tinuviel She is a young person with about 60 million followers on her Instagram. Removing a post doesn't mean one is apologetic about it or finds it inaccurate, especially when there's no accountability offered in terms of apology. Nick Cannon spouted some anti-semitic garbage but then turned around and started having his conversations with Rabbi Cooper along with reading the work of Bari Weiss. He made himself accountable.
If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, that is entirely your right; I'm coming from a much more wary position.
@Derp I don't know you so I can't speak to how you assess anti-semitism. But I will say that when people criticize Israel, they are frequently not speaking in criticism of the government exclusively unless they indicate otherwise. There is a very common, almost global-wide conception that Jews/Israelis are a monolith. It goes along with the notions of controlling the world banks, Hollywood, and Jewish space lasers.
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@derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
Most Chinese people are probably fine, but when we criticize China, we are really using that as a shorthand for the CCP and other tangential parties, not all billion Chinese people.
Maybe not you, but I can assure you that many people criticizing "China" seem to be referring to "people who look Chinese, even if ramen and pho joints are very much not Chinese."
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@ganymede said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
I see what you're saying, but if someone were posting up excepts from Mein Kampf, The Goebbels Diaries, and Gotterdammerung I may think they are a Nazi, and I think that's reasonable.
Damn it, you stole my thunder. I was going to post an image quote from Hitler and put under it "Just to point out, I am sharing someone else's quote. This isn't me saying it, according to @ILuvGrumpyCat.
Assign correct blame is all I'm saying."
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Anyone who thinks Israel and Jews are a monolith needs to look into Neturei Karta, and anyone who thinks criticizing the IDF is antisemitic needs to look into 'Breaking the Silence'.
I know people aren't very well educated on the complexities of this issue but in college I knew a lot of Jews who were pro-BDS. I do know some Jewish people who haven't mentioned the situation, so I don't know what they think, but I definitely do not assume that they must be innately pro-Israel, and I definitely don't hold them to account as if they have to justify Israel somehow, or even associate Israel with them in such a way that I'd be holding the topic politely back while chatting with them. That would really be unfair and cruel.
It's safe to assume that anyone who is educated understands the differences between an individual who has an ethnic background -- and a political entity that shares that ethnic background. Religion becomes an even trickier situation because there's frequently ideological battles over what a religion really is, so an individual really can't be judged on that at all.
Uneducated people, yeah, I have seen and heard a lot of disgusting antisemitism that lumps Israel's reprehensible actions in with Judaism. Sorry for the bigotry you generally have to deal with.
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@hobos said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
Anyone who thinks Israel and Jews are a monolith needs to look into Neturei Karta, and anyone who thinks criticizing the IDF is antisemitic needs to look into 'Breaking the Silence'.
I don't get the feeling that people who think "Jews = Israel" get to that position because they are receptive to self-education. Or any education.
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I have found it helpful, when discussing anti-Semitism, to listen to the Jewish people in the room that are speaking. If there is a conflict between MY UNDERSTANDING OF something a Jewish friend has told me, and something that a Jewish person is presently saying to me, I am best served to listen to what the Jewish person is telling me in the present sense, not arguing with their viewpoint based on what my friend told me. ^^ I don't have to AGREE of course, but I will never personally have the experience or understanding of being the target of this kind of persecution, and I can only be improved (rather than harmed) as a person by actually listening to what I am being told, even if it doesn't agree with something else I have been told.
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That's generally very true when it comes to any kind of minority.
While I am sorry for the bigotry that Jewish people have endured regarding their perceived connection to Israel, and not trying to argue with cupcake's feelings, I am presenting an expansion of knowledge on a complicated topic.
Here's a Jewish media outlet, and an article written by a Jewish author. This will explain why it is a little more complicated than just listening sometimes.
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/12/hypocrisy-zionist-antisemitism/
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@hobos said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
This will explain why it is a little more complicated than just listening sometimes.
But it's not. You're in here telling a Jewish person about antisemitism, and justifying it with educating the rest of us. It's not more complicated than that.
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Wow, so...no.
Zionism is not colonialism, and anti-Zionism is anti-semitic, and I will tell you why.
Zionism, like any kind of political movement, has a spectrum of beliefs. There are deeply conservative Zionists, and there are progressive Zionists. There are Republican Zionists, and there are Democrat Zionists (yes, there really are). You have a extremists, like you do in any movement, and you have people who are invested in intersectionality.
Zionism, at its core, is simply the belief that Jewish people have the right to self-determination in their own homeland.
That's it. That is the essence of Zionism. So if Zionism is being attacked, the above is what you are against, and yes, that is anti-semitic.
Now...if you want to talk about Israel and its relationship with Palestine and Palestinians, that's a completely different issue. I would strongly suggest you turn to the works of Rudy Rochman, Hen Mazzig, and Dani Ishai Behan if you want a greater understanding of Progressive Zionism, instead of treating us like a monolith.
You can be a Zionist and believe that the government is handling relations with the Palestinians terribly.
You can be a Zionist and want the wall to be taken down.
You can be a Zionist and push for Palestinians to have freedom of movement, access to water, education, and the full rights of citizenship.
You can be a Zionist and embrace the co-indigeneity of both Jews and Palestinians.
You can be a Zionist and believe in a two state solution, or a one state solution.
You can be a Zionist and believe both Netanyahu and Hamas are vile and corrupt.The only hypocrisy that's involved is in a deliberate failure to understand what Zionism actually is, rather than what it is being conflated with.
"If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?"
-- Hamilton: An American Musical -
Alright.
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@cupcake said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
You can be a Zionist and believe that the government is handling relations with the Palestinians terribly.
My side peeve is people who think that all Chinese people are part of or support the Chinese government. These are generally the same people who presume that all Americans should support the American government.
- You can be Chinese and believe that the Chinese government is corrupt as fuck.
- You can be Chinese and believe that Chinese people, especially those from the mainland, are racist as fuck.
- You can be Chinese and not believe in communism.
And so on.
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@ganymede said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:
My side peeve is people who think that all Chinese people are part of or support the Chinese government. These are generally the same people who presume that all Americans should support the American government.
And they have very specific ideas (that they'll rarely state out loud) about who is and is not American.
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I genuinely like my job. It's the best job I've ever had, and I hope I can stay a long, long time. But right now I have a huge peeve, about one of my bosses.
Our bosses have repeatedly reminded us about staying safe, not to meet too much people that we don't normally spend time with, to not gather in large numbers, and so on and so on. So, when learning that one of our bosses, together with her daughter who also works at the same place (and sits with us in the same room), went to a cabin in the mountains over a holiday, to meet with 11 other friends and relatives from OTHER parts of the country, and that they got Covid-19 from one of these people?
That is the lamest fucking shit. So now, they got covid, they likely spread it to a third who is now also at home, and another of my co-workers visited him, so now she has to stay at home to wait to see if she has it. And who knows who else they spread it to.
So, yeah. I hope they feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves. They went against ALL the advice and rules, rules they are constantly reminding US to follow.
If I get it, I am tempted to talk to the Union about this shit.
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Rules are not meant to apply to the people applying them onto others.
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Why wait? Just notify the union now.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede Yeah, I might talk it over with our union rep. They've put ALL of us in danger.
Edited to add: We are essential workers. Can't work from home, and we got to work, or trains don't run in a third of the country.
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@goblin Union. Now. If only to watch your back.
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New cases are at a record high here due to a variant, denialists started freaking the fuck out when restaurant indoor dining got shut down for three weeks. And I keep doomscrolling and seeing all these extremely bad news things happening locally about it and I am starting to have difficulty coping.
