Armageddon MUD
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I am having this discussion on another board but the issue with online 'proof' is it's all fakeable. As we have seen in this thread. Someone had brought up oh well screen to screen.
I figured out how to fake that too.
Enable windows clipboard history
Click on the userid you want to display and copy it
Open voice call with the witness, share program or monitor 1
go click copyid of a user
windowskey + v
on the way down to message line click original userid you copied earlier
click message line
ctrl+vWith a little practice, you can do it without them noticing as it just takes a click and you can flit back over. In addition windowskey+v to bring clipboard history doesn't create an icon on the toolbar at the bottom of a desktop so if you're sharing program only or monitor 1 and not all monitors they cannot see it at all.
When I pointed this out to someone advocating it's very simply to verify they then said oh well give me remote access at which point I'm like so we can't trust someones word or their screenshots or their real time screen to screen now we're saying give me remote access to your computer or it's fake?
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But still, they're siding with "it's probably fake, even if we aren't sure" and have decided to not suspend that staffer's authority as a safety measure to their players.
If I was a boss and an allegation of misconduct came out of one of my leaders (who was in a position of authority), if I couldn't prove otherwise my focus would be to ENSURE SAFETY and temporarily suspend someone's ability to exploit their elevated privileges.
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@Ghost If I was accused of impropriety I would not oppose having my responsibilities provoked. For a paid position I would expect to be compensated but until the allegations are addressed both the accuser -and- the accusee are safer with the alleged harasser suspended.
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@Admiral said in Armageddon MUD:
@Ghost If I was accused of impropriety I would not oppose having my responsibilities provoked. For a paid position I would expect to be compensated but until the allegations are addressed both the accuser -and- the accusee are safer with the alleged harasser suspended.
I wouldn't oppose it, either. Safety comes first.
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/619345329619206173/652699205378506752/20191206_211900.jpg
Last one I promise. No need to worry even if complaint that necro'd this thread is fake here's a real one from a phone (harder to fake) and from a long time player with a history!
PS - Sorry for bringing the MUD stuff over here but... Woof this guy.
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@Jeshin Didn't someone mention the notion that someone could put three O's in the user's name instead of two O's in order to fool someone?
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i mean, wot, m8. what even is he trying to imply.
i mean, i can scream and type at the same time? how hard i am screaming doesn't have anything to do with that; they are using different things. also like, what kind of screaming? because uh, it's coming off creepy, not sexy, m8.
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Without context it seems like we're just spreading someone's sexting now. There's at least one person on MSB that could show you all a screenshot of my suggesting sexy cannibalism at them in response to a message they sent; that doesn't make me abusive, just a creep.
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@Jeshin said in Armageddon MUD:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/619345329619206173/652699205378506752/20191206_211900.jpg
Last one I promise. No need to worry even if complaint that necro'd this thread is fake here's a real one from a phone (harder to fake) and from a long time player with a history!
PS - Sorry for bringing the MUD stuff over here but... Woof this guy.
Is it weird that the first time I read that I thought "Duh, I'd be screaming with a knife in me, too"?
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man -
@Ghost said in Armageddon MUD:
@Jeshin said in Armageddon MUD:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/619345329619206173/652699205378506752/20191206_211900.jpg
Last one I promise. No need to worry even if complaint that necro'd this thread is fake here's a real one from a phone (harder to fake) and from a long time player with a history!
PS - Sorry for bringing the MUD stuff over here but... Woof this guy.
Is it weird that the first time I read that I thought "Duh, I'd be screaming with a knife in me, too"?
If taken out of context and placed in a vacuum, I promise you that me and my staffers have made way worse comments than that. This doesn't actually prove anything, really. Most of ours are made for rimshot humor effects.
ETA: If I were the staffer investigating this, and I was provided the evidence that they claim to have seen, I would rule against the accuser too. The IP thing is pretty damning. As someone said, it's a small world, but not that small, and as mentioned, the Discord stuff is pretty easy to fake.
I would also take into account my personal history with the staffer in question, because yes, I am going to do a gut check to see if the pattern of behavior they are accused of matches anything that I have seen from them, the language that I know they're prone to using, etc.
And no, I would not suspend them from staff while the investigation is ongoing, because a) no matter what your intentions with it are, that paints them with a scarlet letter in the court of public opinion, even if you come back later and clear them of it. And b) staff is already hard to find, and harder to keep, so I'm not going to start locking the people that are working for me and helping me keep the plates in the air in a cage until I can figure out if someone is telling the truth or not.
If I determine that they are telling the truth, then the staffer will be gone. I've done it before. At least three times now. But until that point, no, I'm not going to take an action against them, because frankly, I hired them because I trust them, and as far as I'm concerned, they're innocent until proven guilty.
So, when presented with the evidence listed here, and the concerns that they brought back? I would uphold the finding. I don't think that the staff here were out of bounds on that. If other evidence gets presented, it might change my mind, but so far all we have are one comment taken out of context and a log provided from someone that had already been banned from the game, and that does not rise to the level of evidence necessary to be actionable.
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I think the multiple complaints from multiple women about the behavior of this one staffer has to be taken into consideration. Sure, this one single incident may be in question, but at what point does the amount of people saying it get taken into consideration? How many people have to tell you that 'this staffer is x' (choose anything for x that you might not want as behavior on your game for staff) before you take action?
Unless you bring up the strawman of 'well what if they are all working together to get someone fired'! Sure. If all the people are accusing are really close friends, that could be also taken into consideration. But if it spans people who don't know each other, reported often enough that it's a bit of a meme on the subreddit?
#FreeFarfalla
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@Meg said in Armageddon MUD:
I think the multiple complaints from multiple women about the behavior of this one staffer has to be taken into consideration. Sure, this one single incident may be in question, but at what point does the amount of people saying it get taken into consideration? How many people have to tell you that 'this staffer is x' (choose anything for x that you might not want as behavior on your game for staff) before you take action?
Unless you bring up the strawman of 'well what if they are all working together to get someone fired'! Sure. If all the people are accusing are really close friends, that could be also taken into consideration. But if it spans people who don't know each other, reported often enough that it's a bit of a meme on the subreddit?
Here's the thing with that, and this will be an unpopular stance -- accusations are not evidence.
With modern technologies, it is easier than ever to gather evidence of such things. @faraday has included a substantial number of things in Ares that will let you capture, via the system, pretty much anything and bring it to staff attention. Reports that other people have had similar experiences, while potentially valid, also aren't evidence, because everyone has a friend of a friend that had some negative experience, and when I try and run those things down, the third parties are either notoriously absent or deny that behavior.
If you want me to take action, you need to provide evidence. Not just an accusation.
That said, I make it very clear in my policies that you, too, are responsible for your own safety on a MU, and that part of the onus of these things fall on you.
No matter what the social climate currently, I do not think it an unreasonable stance to tell players that they need to take proactive steps in these situations, using the tools available to them. The tools are there, and they are too easy to use. There is really no excuse for not doing so.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@Derp said in Armageddon MUD:
Here's the thing with that, and this will be an unpopular stance -- accusations are not evidence.
While I agree that this is true, we're talking about a job rather than a criminal prosecution. If there are enough - whatever enough means - accusations of misconduct then perhaps it's worth considering letting the accused go. You're not locking them away, or revoking some freedom or right, you're firing them.
Though I am curious about what kinds of proactive steps you think one could take against random sexual harassment. How does one protect themselves from a normal conversation turning into one of sexual demand or manipulation, or indeed random sexually inappropriate messages? Sure, they can block the person after it happens, but that doesn't stop it from having happened.
ETA: I would also add that though many systems may be available to capture evidence, there are as many systems available to falsify that evidence. If you're going to rely on evidence alone, it will just be he said she said. Especially if the accusations stem from places outside of your control.
He/Him
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@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:
@Derp said in Armageddon MUD:
Here's the thing with that, and this will be an unpopular stance -- accusations are not evidence.
While I agree that this is true, we're talking about a job rather than a criminal prosecution.
I mean...in a criminal prosecution, witness testimony IS evidence.
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@Roz said in Armageddon MUD:
@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:
@Derp said in Armageddon MUD:
Here's the thing with that, and this will be an unpopular stance -- accusations are not evidence.
While I agree that this is true, we're talking about a job rather than a criminal prosecution.
I mean...in a criminal prosecution, witness testimony IS evidence.
Witness testimony isn't accusation, it's witness testimony.
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Good questions! So let's take them one by one in what I see as their order of priority:
@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:
Though I am curious about what kinds of proactive steps you think one could take against random sexual harassment. How does one protect themselves from a normal conversation turning into one of sexual demand or manipulation, or indeed random sexually inappropriate messages? Sure, they can block the person after it happens, but that doesn't stop it from having happened.
Obviously people cannot take steps to prevent this behavior, but they can take proactive steps to make sure that such behavior is recorded. Mostly, this isn't entirely necessary on the platform that I am using, as things can be grabbed and flagged fairly easily. On other platforms, I would suggest: Turn on logging with timestamps (most MU clients allow this as an automatic feature, and many MU's have instructions for how to do so), drop the log of the activity in a job (with the timestamps), and we can go back and check server logs to see what all went down there, if necessary. Normally, I've found that people don't deny things that actually happen via submitted logs, but in the event that they do, there are tools for that.
That said, we also make sure to inform players about what mediums of communication we will and will not police (such as game-run Discord servers or the MU itself), and ask players to keep communication with other players to those enforceable mediums.
@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:
While I agree that this is true, we're talking about a job rather than a criminal prosecution. If there are enough - whatever enough means - accusations of misconduct then perhaps it's worth considering letting the accused go. You're not locking them away, or revoking some freedom or right, you're firing them.
This one is largely a matter of policy. I believe in going through something like due process. I will absolutely bypass it if I think that a person has become a problem, and I don't need everything spelled out in letter-of-the-law terms in all things, but I'm also not willing to make fly judgments, or to run a popularity contest. It's a balance thing, and it's not a perfect one, but this is just personal policy. Other people are, naturally, free to pursue other methods in their own spaces. This is just the one I choose to employ in the spaces I control. YMMV.
@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:
ETA: I would also add that though many systems may be available to capture evidence, there are as many systems available to falsify that evidence. If you're going to rely on evidence alone, it will just be he said she said. Especially if the accusations stem from places outside of your control.
Yes, which is why we make it clear that we will police actions only in certain environs. Nominally, the ones where we have some measure of control and ability to fact-check. We make it clear, up front, what arenas we're willing to step in to, what we expect of players, what the process looks like, and the steps that we feel are necessary. If you give someone your contact information in a medium that we don't control, and come back with something from that medium -- well. We asked you not to do that, but largely, that space is already under your control. If it bleeds over into areas we control, we'll take action.
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'it didn't happen on the game' is the worst excuse ever not to do your job as a staffer.
doubly so if you are running an official discord for your game.
#FreeFarfalla
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@Meg said in Armageddon MUD:
'it didn't happen on the game' is the worst excuse ever not to do your job as a staffer.
I'm running an online roleplaying game, not playing moral judge and jury for how somebody lives their life outside the game.
For instance, I may strongly disagree with the rules of the hogpit here, but I'm not going to ban somebody just because they engage in behavior I disapprove of that's within the bounds of the forum. The same goes for discord (outside an official game discord I'm running), facebook, real life, etc. That's not in any way, shape or form my job as a MU staffer.
ETA: I think staff certainly has the right to say "I don't want you on my game" for any reason, but that's different than having the responsibility to police off-game behavior.
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@Meg said in Armageddon MUD:
'it didn't happen on the game' is the worst excuse ever not to do your job as a staffer.
doubly so if you are running an official discord for your game.
Except I delineate explicitly what my job as a staffer is, and what areas I'm willing to police. "My job as a staffer" isn't to protect you from every bad person out in the world. It's to enforce the rules of the game. You can take some damn responsibility for yourself, too, and do shit like -- not give people your personal contact information, which we explicitly advise against.
I draw my lines in the sand, and tell people where my job as a staffer ends. You're a goddamn grownup, and it's almost 2020. If you can't be bothered to ensure your personal safety in the online world, it's expressly not my job to do that for you.
I will police the areas of the game that we control, including game-specific social media spaces. If someone is harassing you via MSN messenger because you chose to give that information out to them, 1) I have no way to verify that, 2) I will not simply take your word for it, 3) I explicitly advised you to NOT do that, and 4) it is clearly delineated as being outside the boundaries of my job.
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@faraday if someone is sexually harassing a person that they play with on your game through MSB, i don't think the median really matters. you're free to have your own opinion. i respect that you do. i just don't agree.
eta: and i'm not saying 'every bad person in the world'. but is your job as a staffer to protect your players against the staffers you hired or the players you have on your game? i think yes.
#FreeFarfalla
