Make it fun for Me!
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It's a weird way to think about it, but I almost wish that all mush players as a prerequisite to mushing spend a month doing just one thing.
Watching soap operas.
Seriously. This puts into their mind how long-term stories work, how badly jointed ad-hoc story lines work. How plot-injection works. How character shields work for specific players or NPC's. How absolutely unrealistic some plots are. How unfair situations are but yet can still be enjoyable.
How it's not real life.
Think of it as a good study for what is considered by most a good recipe for a long-term world environment.
Then apply that to mushing.
It's scary how much that can make sense.
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My response to this comment is really in line with @Kanye-Qwest here (perhaps unsurprisingly).
When I think "make it fun for me!" as a GM what I mean is... please, please GOD if you want a scene with me, please make it interactive. Put yourself into the plot. Bring your A game. If you want to do diplomacy, BY GOD DO DIPLOMACY. If you want to negotiate, NEGOTIATE. If you want to set the world on fire, SET THE WORLD ON FIRE BUT FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DON'T TAKE MY TIME AND THEN SAY "Well, you tell me what I should do to win my objectives, ok?"
No.
JUST NO.
Come up with a plan. Come up with ideas. It's ok to run them by me. "Hey, I want to do X, and I was thinking about doing it by Y series of actions. What do you think? Is it super crazy or super /genious/?" I spend so much time telling people's stories, and making up lore, and answering their questions. But for it to be fun for me means it needs to be collaboration.
It's the difference between a request saying:
"I am lost, so I am praying to the gods for guidance on what they want me to do next."
and...
"I am lost, and I have thought about doing X thing or doing Y thing or maybe doing Z thing, and I think I want to do Y but I know I should do Z, and I struggle. So I'm praying for guidance."
Both are requests for guidance. One requires me to pull a plot out of my ass to help you fulfill your clearly unspecified character goals. The other is concrete. It shows you're willing to put into it what I'm willing to respond with. It's much easier because it gives me hooks. It shows you're invested and involved. You're interested. You're willing to put in the time. And you're willing to tell me what makes it fun for you, so I don't spend all my effort thinking of something I think would be cool, only to find that no, that really wasn't what you were hoping for.
This one time, someone did the 2nd thing and I wrote something like 3 pages of story/lore/backstory for them, because they were so invested in it that it inspired me. That was fun. That was a lot of fun. I want to help make story - I can't do that if you won't give me hooks.
From a GM side it's kind of the equivalent of the person who "plays things close to the chest" and so never shows an emotion or any vulnerability but also never gives any hooks at all. Or the one who sits silently and drinks in a tavern full of people and never engages. Or the one who hovers outside a conversation but never gives any hooks to involve them or interact. What possible reason would I have to seek out those characters? I don't have anything to work with, and no sign that there's any collaborative roleplay even possible.
But the same thing translates as a player. If you're expecting to show up to a scene and be THE SUPERSTAR and then have everything revolve around you 100% of the time, you're destined for disappointment. Sometimes it IS all about you, but those times are exceedingly rare and they should be. So if you show up to a scene with 5 players, be ready to allow it to be about everyone else about 80% of the time, and you get 20% of the action and maybe that's you in the spotlight for a major decision, or you landing the killing blow on a monster, or your sarcastic quip being highlighted in the next GM pose - but give hooks for other people, and give them room to do their thing too.
I could go on. There are so many ways "Make it fun for me!" can be interpreted, and so many ways to do it that I just am consistently baffled by people who are no fun at all to RP with - there are SO MANY WAYS TO MAKE THINGS INTERESTING FOR OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL AS YOU.
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I also used that phrase a lot in talking about interplayer conflict, and I'll never change my mind about it. If you think another player wants to meet you on your timetable so you can chastise them or mock them or berate them or give them grief over something they did IC, you damn well need to make it fun for them. Be mindful of what they might enjoy. Be cognizant of cues. And if you have to do things that aren't fun for them, do them and get them over with and then move on, ffs.
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@darinelle I don't think the blank 'What do you want me to do now?!' is always just players expecting things to be handed to them. There are lots of people who really have no clue what's going on and how to feel like they are part of the game community. Or they have tried everything they can think of. Like, if you're someone who prefers throwing social events (A prayer group to honor a god, a fundraiser to help the orphans, etc) you might not realize other methods to be involved because it is not part of their thought process to, say, pick a fight with someone person who only gives information to a person that can beat him in fisty cuffs. There are also GMs and people in leadership positions that shut down anything a player tries to be involved so, they could be doing a last ditch effort to feel part of things.
One thing I have noticed about the mu* community (it could be very much just my experience) is that people don't like to OOCly, and sometimes ICly, they don't know how to approach a matter to make it enjoyable for those around them. Or those in leadership positions don't like to delegate things to others. Sure, President Isis might know how to create the best connections with Princess Liza but why can't she go 'Huh. Maybe I'll let Socialite Frank see if he can establish a good connection with the Princess.'
So, the not delegating can very much take away from the enjoyment of others because every one has a niche they would like to fill and if they aren't given a way to do that.. they're not going to have any idea how ot IC or OOC proceed with 'claiming that niche'.
I'm well aware my biggest flaw is that once I feel shut down/out I don't push to get involved, I simply stop and just do things with friends because, to me, it seems pointless to fight for involvement when it seems like the others don't want me involved. AKA. I am not an aggressive 'go getter.'
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@arkandel said in Make it fun for Me!:
For example I love flowery purple prose, but I'm well aware that's not for everyone; if I choose to not play with (generic) you very often because you prefer short prose that's completely my choice and we don't need to be mortal enemies! It's just... a thing.
This exactly, probably the only person that I have met on a MU that I would refer to as a friend instead of internet friend I almost never RP because while we have similar other interest and enjoy talking OOCly our play styles do not match so while on occasion we do rp for the most part we talk over pages.
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@thatguythere @Arkandel I've had people who I don't have matching play styles/tastes with too. We just shrug it off and continue talking to each other and make off screen assumptions about our relationships. We get along great OOC but RPing together just doesn't feel good to either of us because we're not meeting each other's 'needs' due to different play styles/tastes.
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@arkandel said in Make it fun for Me!:
The only legitimate reason to complain to someone is if they are actually doing something bad - meaning they are harassing others or trying to metagame or cheat or whatever. That's it, there's no other good reason to do it.
This is the other side of this whole conversation about fun. The anti-fun. Its bad enough that people have to contend with so many different versions of what people consider fun. On top of that, we also have to contend with tip toeing around what other people believe kills their fun. And one of the main reasons I don't MU* anymore is because I so often run into people who have their fun killed by other people having fun, even when that fun doesn't affect their character in any way. Sometimes just having more fun ruins a scene for someone else. Fun envy.
Some people just want to be the center of attention so anyone else that draws attention away is killing their fun. Those people will often give the spotlight to someone else, if for no other reason than to show they are not always the center of attention, but it is always given under their own terms. If someone takes the spotlight or starts to draw it away, the drama begins.
I agree with @Ganymede that it can be both competitive and collaborative, but rarely does that work on a MU*. Many people in this community don't know how to be competitive, meaning they can't stand going up against someone else, losing, and being okay with it - much less have fun with it. The community just isn't built for it. It is a relatively small community and in general I believe its just toxic. Just mention PvP and both players and staff freak - even on games where character death isn't even allowed.
The most fun I've ever had RPing was in tabletops and LARPs, where we'd consistently be fucking each other over (or suspect that we're fucking each other over) during the game, which led to the most unpredictable and ultimately satisfying storylines and resolutions. But that just doesn't hold up on a MU - in general. If you get a small cluster of people you trust and enjoy, maybe. There was one particular amazing player-ST I knew who had these giant storylines planned out with massive flowcharts to go in multiple directions based on what the players did and how the scenes turned out and it was the greatest fun online I've had...
But then other people point and complain that you're having more fun than them and you're cliquish and if you're having so much fun on your own then you should definitely be excluded from all the other fun cause then you'd be having way more than your share of fun, etc., etc., blah, blah, cry, complain, drama fit... And staff is all hurt because people are ignoring their storyline-on-rails that will be told regardless of what players do from start to finish (here, roll some dice in these scenes while I tell this story, that way you feel like you participated) in order to focus on scenes and people they are having more fun with and then the drama starts about how you're trying to take over and how it is bad for the game.
And suddenly your plots aren't being approved for this and that minor reason, you're being scrutinized by staff within an inch of your own life (much less your character's) and your fun is sucked out like a hull breach (because the only way to make sure other people are happy is to make sure that you are as miserable as the rest of the MU*) and all you have left is memories of a time when roleplaying used to be fun.
TL:DR Which type of fun you have is irrelevant when overshadowed by the pettiness of people determined to drag you down because whatever fun you're having, other people can't stand to see you having more of it.
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@warma-sheen said in Make it fun for Me!:
TL:DR Which type of fun you have is irrelevant when overshadowed by the pettiness of people determined to drag you down because whatever fun you're having, other people can't stand to see you having more of it.
The chief enemy of roleplay is and probably has always been players with OOC issues rather than characters and IC ones. So we see things such as
- ego (I want to win!)
- metagaming (I want my circle of friends to win!)
- baggage (I want my enemies from other MU* to lose!)
- spotlight (I want everyone to see me winning!)
- burning out (no one should win anything)
taking over instead. These are all very common factirs, and at times even though most of us will scoff at the idea (why I would never) we've all been on either side of them. They sneak up on us, and we might only realize it in hindsight, much later and after the fact.
We are not above the pettiness you're referring to. Even perfectly good people get caught up in shitstorms because someone they like was involved, or they were on the periphery when things started getting bad and got defensive then couldn't back out or... whatever.
The worst thing we can do is absolve ourselves from guilt preemptively, assume we can't possible be part of the problem in every possible scenario and, thus, that it's always everyone else who has 100% of the blame. That's how we end up in toxic situations.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@warma-sheen said in Make it fun for Me!:
Many people in this community don't know how to be competitive, meaning they can't stand going up against someone else, losing, and being okay with it - much less have fun with it.
Many people in this community need to grow the fuck up, then.
My experience differ vastly from yours. The people I run with are generally okay with winning, losing, collaborating, competing, and being good to others. Jealousy is a non-issue. Feelings are shared often and openly, with no fear of reprisal.
But if you are correct -- you may be -- this might explain why I find it difficult to stay for long on any place.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@arkandel You missed another big enemy.
- Treating a player like they are their characters.
I've had, at least, 3 people in about as many days say that people treat them, the player, like their character. If the character is overly affectionate, they are treated as they are to. Or if they are a crappy character people assume the player is like them too. I've had people do it to /me/ too. As me why /I/ am being so mean to them. Not my character. Me. When it was my character.
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@ganymede said in Make it fun for Me!:
@warma-sheen said in Make it fun for Me!:
Many people in this community don't know how to be competitive, meaning they can't stand going up against someone else, losing, and being okay with it - much less have fun with it.
Many people in this community need to grow the fuck up, then.
My experience differ vastly from yours. The people I run with are generally okay with winning, losing, collaborating, competing, and being good to others. Jealousy is a non-issue. Feelings are shared often and openly, with no fear of reprisal.
But if you are correct -- you may be -- this might explain why I find it difficult to stay for long on any place.
Realistically I think these are the problems. You're never going to get away from this stuff in anything but very small play groups.
We've touched on defining game types, player types, etc in this thread, but the large-scale everyone-is-welcome nature of the hobby undermines ever really having much success with this. Games will always be competitive, because even if the main action/plot is still entirely PvE, there's still an OOC metagame of social drama, competition over story spotlight, etc. And there's very little you can do about it.
This can even make actual hard PvP games feel better because at least they're honest about how people are going to approach them. You're not put in the player position of 'do the cooperative thing and then get fucking shanked in the ribs for it,' nor do staffers have to contend with managing the disparate player behaviors. Someone mentioned soap operas, and I tried to take this kind of approach running storylines on comic games, but it can be so damn hard to get everyone to buy into that, and one bad player can readily derail things.
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@icanbeyourmuse said in Make it fun for Me!:
I've had, at least, 3 people in about as many days say that people treat them, the player, like their character. If the character is overly affectionate, they are treated as they are to. Or if they are a crappy character people assume the player is like them too. I've had people do it to /me/ too. As me why /I/ am being so mean to them. Not my character. Me. When it was my character.
Yeah, the inability to see the line between OOC and IC is a big deal. It's why I always advise people to refer to their characters as "him/her" rather than "me", even if I understand it's just a convention.
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Roleplaying does not inherently mean assuming the identity of a unique character. For some it means inserting their own alter ego into a fantasy setting. That's why it can be difficult for them to separate the IC actions from the IC or OOC motivations.
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@ashen-shugar i love the Spanish soap operas. That reminds me of WoD bar rp.
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@shincashay said in Make it fun for Me!:
@ashen-shugar i love the Spanish soap operas. That reminds me of WoD bar rp.
My PC on Darkwater once referred to a motley full of young gay men as a "gay telenovela" because of the drama they generated. Of course, there was a complaint about homophobia promptly after. @Cobaltasaurus and I still occasionally laugh about it.
"If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?"
-- Hamilton: An American Musical -
@ganymede said in Make it fun for Me!:
Many people in this community need to grow the fuck up, then.
My experience differ vastly from yours. The people I run with are generally okay with winning, losing, collaborating, competing, and being good to others. Jealousy is a non-issue. Feelings are shared often and openly, with no fear of reprisal.I want to bring up the other half of this statement, which you and I have seen so many times that we hardly think about it anymore:
There's no issue when you accept the person you're playing with.
Where people need to grow the fuck up is in accepting that fun of others is just as important as their own. If everybody was reasonable about this, drama would take a nosedive like you on your SO.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@thenomain This is well put.
I am thinking of the times when I have not been OK with this -- because like everybody, there are times I'm not OK with it.
It comes down to one of three scenarios in every case (and the second two are more or less the same thing in different permutations):
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The other person really does not give the first damn that I not only have no interest in pursuing what they're pushing, but I find it offensive or gross or it would cause me RL problems. (For instance, for a while I was involved with someone who had a 'no TS' rule*; I made this very clear to anyone I played with and you can bet there were people who tried to use dice-rolled force to make this happen, and would increase the 'consequences' dramatically if I suggested FtB. As in, 'would have to be affectionate/constantly gush about how sexy they were/etc.' in ways that still would have caused me extremes of RL drama, and they were aware of this.
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I spend months building up something to share with folks, and do so. Put tons of work in for everyone's shared benefit. People get cool things out of it, which makes me happy! But then when I have an idea of something I want to do with it, and state as much (since I should get a turn eventually, too, right?) the people involved promptly stomp my face into the pavement to claim it for themselves and to get laid/look shiny/kiss up to a fuckbuddy/etc.
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I'm perfectly happy to 'not win'. I do still want to be able to come out on top sometimes, even if it's only one time out of ten. If someone simply refuses to allow this after I've given way to them gracefully, without objection or hesitation, and in good faith repeatedly, I am going to be annoyed. Because, as above, hey, I should get a turn eventually, too. I do not exclusively exist to be walked on IC to make somebody else feel big, and this makes me feel like I'm being walked on OOC to make someone else feel big -- because I am.
- Which was fucking stupid, but he was such over the fucking top drama from hell any time he even thought any of my characters were even nice to someone it was a goddamned nightmare. (Dude sent at least a dozen RL texts of 'whore/slut/trash' etc. to me for hugging a friend IC once when he sent a secret alt to spy on this completely public casual interaction as an example.) It was just easier to go along after two years of arguing about it going nowhere, and I was a doormat from hell at the time.
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@cupcake homophobia? Really? That's dumb.
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@thenomain said in Make it fun for Me!:
Where people need to grow the fuck up is in accepting that fun of others is just as important as their own. If everybody was reasonable about this, drama would take a nosedive like you on your SO.
I don't disagree, but I think you misunderstand how busy our lives are with kids, work, school, elections, and so on. If I took a nosedive, I'd probably fall the fuck asleep.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Make it fun for Me!:
@thenomain said in Make it fun for Me!:
Where people need to grow the fuck up is in accepting that fun of others is just as important as their own. If everybody was reasonable about this, drama would take a nosedive like you on your SO.
I don't disagree, but I think you misunderstand how busy our lives are with kids, work, school, elections, and so on. If I took a nosedive, I'd probably fall the fuck asleep.
That's what she said.
HEEYYOOOOOOO!
Only she didn't.
Because she, too, was asleep.
