MUSH Marriages (IC)

Tinuviel

@three-eyed-crow said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

I've been a lot happier in my since I just NOPED out of relationship stuff with players where the answer was no

This is my gold standard for RP in general, these days.
I do very little RP.

faraday

Cupcake

I've had a few married characters. I've had a few characters who it is pretty much universally agreed upon wound up married, and I've also had characters who had long term partnerships with no official status and children with her partner.

Reasonably though, on my laundry list of characters, the number of them who were married is rather low, and the ones with kids whether married or not were less than that. Though I do consider part of the L&L theme to be "build your dynasty" if you're playing a noble, esp. if you're starting from the bottom.

Arkandel

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

You make me sound like such a fucking bitch.

That was definitely not my intention. I think you are very clear in the way that you interact with people in that you draw lines to make clear where things stand, so that they know if they are getting crossed.

Consistency is admirable.

KDraygo

@vulgarkitten said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

@crysta said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

@vulgarkitten said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

@crysta said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

Longest marriage I had was on Firan I think. Never got divorced and I haven't had any character die yet. Never actually had a break up, come to think of it.

But I think the average time it takes for my character to get into romantic RP is about a year. Not so much because I'm picky so much as it's never my focus and it just kind of happens. I rarely -pursue- it.

I enjoyed having my character married to yours, though it's a shame it outlasted the game.

We were married? Which game was this? I'm trying to remember! Jacen? Elias?

Rowan!

Awww Rowan! That game closed so fast! Twas sad!

Our house was going places. Just sayin.

Ganymede

@faraday said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

@Ganymede is my hero.

Well, you are my hero, so this definitely works out.

@arkandel said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

That was definitely not my intention. I think you are very clear in the way that you interact with people in that you draw lines to make clear where things stand, so that they know if they are getting crossed.

I know. I was being tongue-in-cheek.

Seriously, I've had great relationship RP. Fun relationship RP, that didn't always become about the hawt seX0rz. I can think of a dozen folks I have such a good time with in a relationship, mostly because, I guess, I'm not clingy or needy as a player.

Funny, though, that I can see how my MUSH relationships mirror my own at home. My partner and I are professionals who see each other for, like, a couple of hours a day. She gives me my space to play video games, and it gives her space to read her fan-fiction and do online shopping. And when we come together, we have stories to tell, laughs to share, and get into general mushiness that help remind each other as to why we have stayed together for 12+ years.

Wistfully, I miss just about every PC relationship I've lost over the past two years, but times move on. From Daithi's awkward love triangle to Trash Panda's manic connection with Kyle, I'm reminded constantly as to what enjoyable social RP can be like.

But, yeah. Like any RL relationship, set clear boundaries where applicable and don't budge. The worthy suitors and lovers will come by and enjoy the living shit out of you because, lo, you're being an adult in adult situations.

Arkandel

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

Seriously, I've had great relationship RP. Fun relationship RP, that didn't always become about the hawt seX0rz. I can think of a dozen folks I have such a good time with in a relationship, mostly because, I guess, I'm not clingy or needy as a player.

After a long time in the hobby I think where things usually break down is where any kind of boundary getting crossed isn't met with an immediate - mild, but clear - message that it's inappropriate. It doesn't have to be a fight or a 'breakup', but it does need to be explicitly communicated and not argued.

When it comes to some of the needier, angst-filled people in our community signals room for negotiation. So I whine at you because you're playing in a room with your alt with someone else and you try to explain yourself, the message you are sending ("hey, I'm not doing anything wrong, man") isn't the one I'm receiving ("if I make your life miserable every time you do this, you'll stop doing this, and instead only play with me"). It's because that's what I want to read, and what I want from you, yet what you want isn't a concern of mine.

The correct messaging has to be explicit. I think you are doing a good job of that, and it's something I wish more people did since it'd eliminate much of the drama. "Hey, I play alts whose RP is separate than the RP we have together. I do different things sometimes, it doesn't mean I don't like the RP we have." If there's any pushback on it, offer to figure out a way to transition out of the RP you have with that person - and if there's more pushback I'd advise to turn the offer into a mandate. Don't argue the point, just declare it; this signals your boundaries aren't up for debate.

Lines. They need to exist, and they need to be respected, else bad things can, have, and will continue to happen.

Tinuviel

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

I'm not clingy or needy as a player

And you write really good letters.

@arkandel said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

an immediate - mild, but clear - message

With a few exceptions, I'd say that many of our number are rather hesitant on the confrontation front - however mild it might be. Are we misinterpreting things, are we being too sensitive, are we being childish, are we, are we... we aim the blame for our discomfort at ourselves.

Arkandel

@tinuviel said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

With a few exceptions, I'd say that many of our number are rather hesitant on the confrontation front - however mild it might be. Are we misinterpreting things, are we being too sensitive, are we being childish, are we, are we... we aim the blame for our discomfort at ourselves.

I know, and it's why we keep getting drama. It's a direct effect of people perceiving this hesitation as weakness so they prey on it.

Which is unfortunate because a tiny bit of showing resolve upfront can save a ton of headaches down the line. Don't argue your lines - it's as simple as that.

Darinelle

@arkandel said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

"Hey, I play alts whose RP is separate than the RP we have together. I do different things sometimes, it doesn't mean I don't like the RP we have." If there's any pushback on it, offer to figure out a way to transition out of the RP you have with that person - and if there's more pushback I'd advise to turn the offer into a mandate. Don't argue the point, just declare it; this signals your boundaries aren't up for debate.

This, so much this. And also:

"I play my character who is with yours ICly, but that doesn't mean I play my character with yours exclusively. I do different things and RP with different people, but that doesn't mean I don't like the RP we have."

And lastly:

"We are not OOCly married or together. Do not treat me as though we are."

Those three boundaries are huge and should be instantly respected - and anyone who pushes them is an instant no from me for any sort of deep, meaningful relationship.

Ganymede

I think a lot comes down to, simply, the approach and response.

The best approach is one that seeks a yes or no response. For example: "Hello! I'd really like to RP with you today. Can you log on <alt> and play with me?"

The best response is direct with a short explanation. For example: "No, I'm playing with <other PC> right now and can't handle another window."

Being direct with responses also requires, on the flip side, being direct with your desires. Ironically, the best way to avoid a dramatic confrontation is to be as direct as possible, in my opinion.

That said:

@darinelle said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

"We are not OOCly married or together. Do not treat me as though we are."

Yeah, this isn't a great response, because I wouldn't tolerate that shit from my partner either. Plus, it throws just so much shade.

Darinelle

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

@darinelle said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

"We are not OOCly married or together. Do not treat me as though we are."

Yeah, this isn't a great response, because I wouldn't tolerate that shit from my partner either. Plus, it throws just so much shade.

I'm not sure what shit you're talking about. I expect my partner RL to talk to me about concerns, and I am willing to work on our relationship and make compromises and do things I might not otherwise do for the sake of my RL relationship. To a certain extent I am willing to do that ICly for an IC relationship, but I am not willing to discuss OOCly how our relationship is making you OOC feel. We aren't married and we aren't together, don't expect me to deal with your emotional baggage.

DeadEmpire

@arkandel said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

Seriously, I've had great relationship RP. Fun relationship RP, that didn't always become about the hawt seX0rz. I can think of a dozen folks I have such a good time with in a relationship, mostly because, I guess, I'm not clingy or needy as a player.

After a long time in the hobby I think where things usually break down is where any kind of boundary getting crossed isn't met with an immediate - mild, but clear - message that it's inappropriate. It doesn't have to be a fight or a 'breakup', but it does need to be explicitly communicated and not argued.

When it comes to some of the needier, angst-filled people in our community signals room for negotiation. So I whine at you because you're playing in a room with your alt with someone else and you try to explain yourself, the message you are sending ("hey, I'm not doing anything wrong, man") isn't the one I'm receiving ("if I make your life miserable every time you do this, you'll stop doing this, and instead only play with me"). It's because that's what I want to read, and what I want from you, yet what you want isn't a concern of mine.

The correct messaging has to be explicit. I think you are doing a good job of that, and it's something I wish more people did since it'd eliminate much of the drama. "Hey, I play alts whose RP is separate than the RP we have together. I do different things sometimes, it doesn't mean I don't like the RP we have." If there's any pushback on it, offer to figure out a way to transition out of the RP you have with that person - and if there's more pushback I'd advise to turn the offer into a mandate. Don't argue the point, just declare it; this signals your boundaries aren't up for debate.

Lines. They need to exist, and they need to be respected, else bad things can, have, and will continue to happen.

The amount of truth in this is mind boggling. I wish somebody had pointed this out to me years ago. I could have avoided a lot of drama. I've always had a hard time putting up boundaries OOC. I just wish people wouldn't keep trying to drag their RL baggage into an IC relationship.

My favorite marriage I ever had was with a political match, arranged marriage with a man that loved my character, but she hated him and resented everything he did. We had a lot of great rp out of it, and ooc we were all cool about it. Communication was key, because we were horrid to each other, but that's what RP is. It ISN'T REAL. I think far too often people forget that. I sometimes need a little reminder myself.

faraday

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

Well, you are my hero, so this definitely works out.

:beam:

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

But, yeah. Like any RL relationship, set clear boundaries where applicable and don't budge.

This - 100%. I'm maybe not the best at enforcing boundaries soon enough, but I do have my limits. And I really do believe that a lot of the folks in this hobby who have boundary issues honestly don't realize they're doing it. I've been in a couple of IC relationships where the other player started blending IC/OOC too much for my liking, and I've found that a polite but firm "Yo, you're being creepy - I am not my character, knock it off" works wonders.

A lot of players are loathe to do this, but the drama caused by avoiding it far outweighs the potential drama caused by confronting the issue. And by confronting such behavior, you're saving other players headaches down the road. Consider it a public service. Player X being told a half-dozen times "Yo, you've got boundary issues and I don't want to play this relationship any more" sends a much different message than players just mysteriously bailing.

@ganymede said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

The worthy suitors and lovers will come by and enjoy the living shit out of you because, lo, you're being an adult in adult situations.

I tend not to do serious IC relationships any more. Been burned too many times by either players with boundary issues or players who just bail on the game without warning. (Like... yo, if you're not going to play that's fine -- but at least have the courtesy to write your character out and not leave somebody hanging.)

The only time it really worked out was on BSP. It's great when you've got two mature, chill people who are there for the story and not some sort of OOC relationship proxy. You can actually do dramatic, potentially difficult storylines without worrying that the other person is going to freak out or get OOCly jealous. Sadly, that's pretty rare.

Ganymede

@darinelle said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

I'm not sure what shit you're talking about.

In retrospect, I'm not sure I completely understood what you were getting at either.

To a certain extent I am willing to do that ICly for an IC relationship, but I am not willing to discuss OOCly how our relationship is making you OOC feel.

This is something I am always willing to talk about, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give ground on those lines. I believe that working IC relationships have this element of OOC to them; that is, I and the other player(s) get along OOC, which is sort of how the IC relationship works. I can honestly say I've never had a particularly deep IC relationship with anyone I didn't get along with OOC. So, how a person feels OOC about the relationship is somewhat relevant to whether or not it's going to be an IC relationship that is worth pursuing.

If a partner feels as if my sporadic online times aren't conducive to what they expect OOC out of their RP or IC relationship, I am more than happy to find a reason to step aside for them to pursue someone else, if they wish. I think this is part of the "hold the line" mentality; if someone expects different lines from their RP partners, then they should hold their lines and enforce them, just as I would.

Ultimately, I believe that what we get and expect from our IC relationships are set primarily from our OOC preferences and expectations. So, you really ought to talk OOC about OOC feelings if they come up OOC.

Bananerz

In my time playing across different games, I can’t remember having a character in a marriage or a relationship with anyone, yay me!* It just isn't my cup of tea to play some pretend relationship as I’ve seen nothing but drama and problems come out of things like that or one of the partners is rotting on the roster forever, but that doesn't mean it isn't fun for someone else as evident by so many getting involved in things like this and I say good for them because they are having fun in a game and that’s what a game is about.

Personally, if someone felt that they have some right over me in real life simply because we happen at the time to play a game together where our pretend characters have a relationship, I’d be telling them upfront they’re wrong. In my mind, I play a game when and how I want (while following whatever game rules there are and theme), and I’d not feel at all compelled that I have to RP with a character’s partner whenever I log on. My time, my choice, not yours.

I’d rather just be in some small party exploring dungeons, slaying dragons, investigation religious/cultural themes or being the luggage servant. Love/sexual/whatever spousal type relationships seem so much harder than slaying dragons!

*Note: I remember now one character I took off roster and they had a secret sex relationship that culminated with a baby that to me seemed weird which seems to have stemmed from a former player wanting relationship RP. It just shows that two people can have fun on a character, interpret that character differently to pursue the type of fun they're wanting. I don't think the prior player or me were wrong. I rostered that character when others acted incredibly skeevy trying to pursue some sexy time.

Darinelle

@ganymede I think we probably fundamentally agree and I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I like. In my head, those three statements were independent of one another, not a series of increasingly crankier comments. As I see it, there are three major roadblocks to having a successful IC relationship:

Being in an IC relationship doesn't mean my character is ONLY going to RP with THAT ONE PERSON, and saying or implying otherwise is ridiculous.
Being in an IC relationship on one character doesn't mean I'm not going to play alts with other people, and really doesn't mean I want to play my alts with your alts and have them also be in a relationship.
Being in an IC relationship is not the same as being in an OOC relationship, so I'm not going to schedule my world around you. I'm not going to send you a messenger ICly and wait until you tell me we didn't have anything planned before I make plans to have events, and I am not going to merge our schedules so we can spend the most RP time together as possible. When I go to RP with someone if you aren't invited, I don't expect OOC flak. Now, we could ICly fight about it, sure. But don't page me oocly about it, because I don't care and you're not my spouse and I don't care.

I care if my husband feels excluded. I care if he feels like I'm spending too much time with other people and that his needs aren't being met. I would expect him to care in reverse (and he does). These are, to me, reasonable expectations that come as part of being in a RL relationship. I do not expect to spend the same time or energy maintaining an IC relationship because, well - it's not my actual relationship and I don't want it to be. There are lots of healthy behaviors I do in a RL relationship that I'm wholly uninterested in doing in an IC one from an OOC perspective.

Lotherio

@bananerz said in MUSH Marriages (IC):

that doesn't mean it isn't fun for someone else as evident by so many getting involved in things like this and I say good for them because they are having fun in a game and that’s what a game is about.

This, for everything. Sure its about marriages and such, but everything. Been said time and time and time again, but I like the way it was said right here. Just saying cause I can't upvote it more than the one time.

saosmash

Lordy lordy. Readin this thread about other people's experiences just makes me feel really relieved about my previous ic relationship partners. I think I must have really dodged some bullets.

deadculture

@bananerz I learned to ask the player of someone any of my characters are possibly getting in relationships with about where they see the relationship as going. It's a good way to gauge what they expect out of you and what they stories they want to pursue from it. I figure it's better to have a degree of informed consent on each other's expectations going forward from that point than just winging it and seeing where it goes.

On the other hand, I've played an unhappy couple with a long term online friend of mine and we've had some beautifully tragic and tense scenes as a result of that RP. I'd say it made me a better player, overall, because it was eye-opening, in a way; just how we handled the adversity since we trusted each other as players and had a good degree of separation.