Good or New Movies Review
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I do think there's a pretty big difference between comparing every detail of a movie to comics canon, which can indeed be annoying and misses the point of an adaptation of original material, and feeling like an adaptation missed the sort of core essence of a character. Then it becomes, "Well, that's not really the same character, and the movie kind of misunderstood the very basics of them." There's an idea that certain aspects will remain consistent across adaptations.
I think Guardians is a fun movie but not actually a great adaptation of several of the characters in it. I don't go around telling people it's awful because of that, but I do tend to rate it lower on my list of Marvel movies than a lot of folks for whom it's one of their top ones. I don't really think I need to "lighten the fuck up" over that, because it's not like I'm actually making that huge a deal over it. And I don't think it's so terrible that there may be comics fans who really don't like how they portrayed Amanda Waller, who has a lot of fans due to her intense awesomeness. People want characters they love to at least be recognizable in some core manner.
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@Roz
Speaking for myself, I think I lot of what has gotten Guardians such a good set of reviews and following from people is not that it captures the exacts of the comic, it captures the basic 'essence' of the series without having to sit through, say, the origin story for each of the characters. You get a distilled version of stuff which works with such a large, ensemble cast and gives it a wider appeal other than comic book fans. -
@Bobotron I kind of disagree, mostly because the run of Guardians of the Galaxy comics that it was based was not actually super widely-read. It definitely wasn't a commonly-read property by plenty of comics fans. It's not an Iron Man or Spider-Man or Captain America where your average comics fan has picked up at least one of those books at some point. Most of what they were pulling from was a 25-issue run in the late 2010s. It's a ridiculously smaller amount of source material than your average comics film.
And I also disagree because, as I said, I think that it really fundamentally misunderstood the core of several of its main casts. Like, made them totally different characters. The end result may have been a great, fun film, but for me it's not my favorite. I mean, for me specifically these comics were also especially important to me for my connection with my late brother over them, etc. etc.
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@Roz
To me that is what I think made the Guardians movie. The picked characters is was very hard to fuck up. For example Groot. The core of Groot is big tree guy that says Groot. He is also a uber genius but can't communicate but that is hard to convey in a visual medium so it is nearly impossible to screw him up for a movie.
the rest tend to follow suit with not having a large set of Cannon to deal with as far as fan expectation.
The only one I really thought was a lot different from the comic version was Starlord and yeah they basically turned the character to a joke.
And don't get me started on Yondu, though that is easy enough to mentally right out since movie Yondu could easily just be an ancestor with the same name as Real Yondu. -
@ThatGuyThere Groot and Rocket were very canon-accurate. Peter Quill, as you said, wasn't, and Gamora was also somewhat of a total character flip. In the movie they turned her into a sort of moral core of the team, whereas she's far more ruthless in the comics and has plenty of struggles with balancing that with her own sense of morality. And Drax bears little to no resemblance to his comics counterpart.
I'd say that it's not that it was hard to fuck up the characters, but that most people are just unfamiliar with the characters and so didn't notice the fuck-ups. There's a big difference there.
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Depends on the Gamora stuff you read, she was the moral core of Warlock and the Infinity Watch back in the day; a very violent often ignored and exasperated moral core but moral core none the less.
Drax was unlike any version that is true but I was just happy to get a semi-serious version of Drax rather then the brain damaged one form his first resurrection. -
I've enjoyed the Star Trek reboot a lot (my first fandom was the original Star Trek, though I wasn't even alive during its run) and it seems pretty close to the spirit of things. I thought the latest installation ran a little too long, it was fun, but I think some better editing would have done it well, but I still enjoyed it!
I really REALLY loved the new Ghostbusters movie though. I was pretty skeptical because Melissa McCarthy is super duper hit or miss for me, as is Kristen Wiig. But I thought that had the spirit (har de har) of the originals too, I loved the cameos, it was very enjoyable and fun from start to finish. And I loved that for once I was thinking "wow, I wish the movie were a little longer" rather than "jesus christ, when is this going to end!" (which has been my experience with the latest Star Trek movie, as mentioned, as well as Civil War, even though I liked them both).
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So the new Independence Day movie sucked.
I liked This Land.
I liked X-Men Apocalypse.
I liked the Jungle Book
Keanu is great! Bad Neighbors 2 is even better than the first one, and I loved the first one. Who knew female sororities couldn't party? What kind of bullshit is that?!
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@lordbelh
I couldn't do Jungle Book. Giant snake is a giant nope rope for me. -
@ThatGuyThere said in Good or New Movies Review:
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- I mean it's Mr. Freeze, to me the character is nothing more then a Gotham D-lister ranking around the likes of Calendar Man, The Firebug (Note I do mean Firebug not Firefly the essentially identical character but with a better visual design) and Crazy Quilt.
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I presume that you've seen the new Dr. Freeze in Batman: the Animated Series, specifically the episode Heart of Ice, which is, I think, Season 1, Ep. 12. Watch that, and you tell me if Arnold came close, because that is who Dr. Freeze is now, in the hearts and minds of a generation of Batman lovers.
@Roz said in Good or New Movies Review:
I think Guardians is a fun movie but not actually a great adaptation of several of the characters in it. I don't go around telling people it's awful because of that, but I do tend to rate it lower on my list of Marvel movies than a lot of folks for whom it's one of their top ones.
To be clear: I didn't say that Guardians of the Galaxy was awful; I said that I liked Suicide Squad better.
Further, to be clear: I didn't agree that Waller was an idiot; I said that she was in over her head, right from the start. It's not far from the realm of possibility that a woman who can face down a demi-god and the Batman may have a small case of I'm too sexy for my shirt arrogance. Perhaps calling her "dumb" was a bit much on my part, but people make mistakes, right?
Like the Batman, when he let Robin die.
Like the Joker underestimating Waller's ruthlessness. (Which is a sticking point I have: I'm not sure why the Clown Prince of Chaos can so easily elude Batman, but got himself shot down, save by underestimating how much of a bitch Waller could be.)
Anyhow: Suicide Squad good; Ghostbusters fun.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said in Good or New Movies Review:
that is who Dr. Freeze is now, in the hearts and minds of a generation of Batman lovers.
Always worth another go:
http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2007/06/16/“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said in Good or New Movies Review:
Always worth another go:
http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2007/06/16/Rather inapplicable in context here, as Dr. Freeze has been adjusted away from the campy Mr. Freeze in just about every incarnation, including Arnold's version in Batman and Robin.
The Otto Preminger (Silver Age) version -- the first photo -- was Mr. Freeze, who chemically-altered himself after inventing his "ice gun."
The Paul Dini (Modern Age) version -- the second photo -- is Dr. Victor Fries, who invented a cryostatic process to freeze his wife, Nora, until he figured out a cure for her fatal illness. He was altered when his experiments were interrupted by Ferris Boyle (voiced by Mark Hamill in the cartoon), who discovered Fries' experiments were done using his equipment and resources. Dr. Fries mistakenly believes that Boyle's interruption killed Nora, but we later learn otherwise. And Arnold's Mr. Freeze is based on the Dini version.
It's worth noting that Patrick Stewart was originally sought for the role of Dr. Fries in Batman and Robin, due to the complexity of the character and his backstory. Arnold was tapped, and the script altered, because Joel Schumacher is a fucking moron.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said in Good or New Movies Review:
It's worth noting that Patrick Stewart was originally sought for the role of Dr. Fries in Batman and Robin, due to the complexity of the character and his backstory.
Also because he's bald! That's known to be how Hollywood producers think.
(But yes, I made it up)
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said in Good or New Movies Review:
Also because he's bald! That's known to be how Hollywood producers think.
(But yes, I made it up)
Even so, that's probably one of the reasons too. Dini's Dr. Fries wasn't intended to be a big brute; he was just a scientist trying to save his wife.
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@Ganymede said in Good or New Movies Review:
Rather inapplicable in context here
On the contrary, it's very applicable to those people who are saying that the depiction of Character-Name-Here is not the right one. It's not the only explanation for this behavior, but it is a very popular one.
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@Ganymede said in Good or New Movies Review:
@Roz said in Good or New Movies Review:
I think Guardians is a fun movie but not actually a great adaptation of several of the characters in it. I don't go around telling people it's awful because of that, but I do tend to rate it lower on my list of Marvel movies than a lot of folks for whom it's one of their top ones.
To be clear: I didn't say that Guardians of the Galaxy was awful; I said that I liked Suicide Squad better.
Funnily, despite you bringing up Guardians first, I wasn't actually commenting on your mention of it. I was using it as a reference for a movie I think didn't get the real core of the characters right, because it's the one that always comes to mind for me. And I wasn't meaning my bit about "I don't go around telling people it's awful" to be about you either, I was just rating where my personal level of annoyance with the movie. (Some things I do go around telling people it's awful...)
In hindsight, I can see where my words may have been confusing. But you certainly don't have to defend the points you're defending to me; I promise I wasn't poking at them!
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@Ganymede said in Good or New Movies Review:
@ThatGuyThere said in Good or New Movies Review:
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- I mean it's Mr. Freeze, to me the character is nothing more then a Gotham D-lister ranking around the likes of Calendar Man, The Firebug (Note I do mean Firebug not Firefly the essentially identical character but with a better visual design) and Crazy Quilt.
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I presume that you've seen the new Dr. Freeze in Batman: the Animated Series, specifically the episode Heart of Ice, which is, I think, Season 1, Ep. 12. Watch that, and you tell me if Arnold came close, because that is who Dr. Freeze is now, in the hearts and minds of a generation of Batman lovers.
Oh I fully admit there are a lot of pro Freeze people. I just am not one of them. He is not even in my top 5 of cold based DC villains. (Not that any one cares but that list would be: 1. Captain Cold, 2. Icicle 3. Golden Glider 4. Coldsnap 5. Killer Frost. )
The difference is I do not say the freeze fans need to "lighten the fuck up."
They can feel free to complain about the Arnold and earlier versions all they want, it just won't change my opinion. -
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See, the problem I have with the entirety of nerd arguments is they usually boil down to: This is not what I understand and/or prefer, therefore it is wrong. As long as there is the acceptance that the argument is over opinion, then the arguments can be pretty interesting.
Or to be slightly more pedantic, I think there is a big difference between the sentiments of "you are wrong" and "I prefer my view".
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said in Good or New Movies Review:
See, the problem I have with the entirety of nerd arguments is they usually boil down to: This is not what I understand and/or prefer, therefore it is wrong. As long as there is the acceptance that the argument is over opinion, then the arguments can be pretty interesting.
In a similar vein the problem I have with the majority of such arguments is that they're entirely subjective and nearly always a matter of preference. There's no way to prove anything either way since it usually refers to fictional characters and situations so unless everyone involves likes chatting about it even if they disagree it's just not productive.
Who is the 'best cold villain'? Who'd win in a fight, Superman or Batman? Best author, Martin or Tolkien?
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said in Good or New Movies Review:
Best author, Martin or Tolkien?
Tolkien rapped the shit out of Martin, so that one's answered.
