A new platform?

[Lotherio]

@jennkryst

One of the draws for using MU to host games is, or was, its versatility. And yet, it is now the biggest downside?

The new places are a good progressive step, but I'm not sure this potential downside will ever make Mu's comparable to other forms of RP and collaborative story telling, no matter how many times we say its our preferred form/format.

@SquirrelTalk Not sure what we're disagreeing about, I was only noting other social mediums have RP happening right now, even live and persistent. They can include dice through applications that can be installed into them. I'm more interested in collaborative story telling too.

[faraday]

As others have already mentioned, AresMUSH (still in beta) is intended to be a 'next-gen' platform for MUSHes specifically. It addresses some of the common issues by streamlining the command interface, offering a web interface for a lot of things, restructuring help files by topic instead of by command, and offering built-in game advertising through a central database. While there is not currently an active game using Ares, BSGU is still up in sandbox mode to check out the interface, and there are several new games in development.

Evennia does some of these things too, but it is intended to be more of a generic MU-building toolkit that applies to all text-based gaming platforms, MUDs included.

Aside from Roll20 (which offers more of a tabletop-ish experience), there are a number of online forum-RP sites. You can find many through directories like http://rpg-directory.com/. There's also Storium, which has a more "gamified" play-by-forum feel. The trouble with forum games is that they're sloooooooooow. A scene that might get resolved in one evening on a MUSH will stretch on for a month. It's an entirely different feel.

Like @Three-Eyed-Crow said, there's nothing really out there that mirrors the MUSH experience IMHO.

[Apos]

Evennia's parser helps a bit, in that it can ignore leading characters, so +finger, finger, @finger, whatever all would do the same thing, but the command structure still drives people nuts that aren't used to MUs even so.

[faraday]

@apos Yeah Ares does that too, but like you said - ALL command-line interfaces suffer from that basic problem, which is why they went the way of the dino in mainstream computing ages ago. As long as MUSHers cling to playing through the old MU clients, it's not a fully solvable problem. Offering alternatives, like dedicated mobile apps or a web interface, can address some of it.

[Jennkryst]

@lotherio Versatility for it's own sake is problematic. Not to mention sometimes a command line is different because a coder just happened to write it that way (or may have been forced to write it that way because of things in the code, I don't know how that sorcery works).

@faraday brought up my other point: Computers revolve around the point/click interface (for most people, who don't go into the command prompt). During, for lack of a better term, the golden era of MUdom, people still had to do DOS run cmd whatsits.

[Thenomain]

I try to put as much name completion (tab completion without tabs) as I can. Every little thing helps.

[Lotherio]

@jennkryst said in A new platform?:

@lotherio Versatility for it's own sake is problematic. Not to mention sometimes a command line is different because a coder just happened to write it that way (or may have been forced to write it that way because of things in the code, I don't know how that sorcery works).

@faraday brought up my other point: Computers revolve around the point/click interface (for most people, who don't go into the command prompt). During, for lack of a better term, the golden era of MUdom, people still had to do DOS run cmd whatsits.

When I came in, during the early 90s, the ability to code into the game and/or have entirely different game systems work within a Mu was the biggest draw for me, versatility. If that's problematic, then I'm a problem child.

[faraday]

@jennkryst said in A new platform?:

@lotherio Versatility for it's own sake is problematic. Not to mention sometimes a command line is different because a coder just happened to write it that way (or may have been forced to write it that way because of things in the code, I don't know how that sorcery works).

Mostly it's just because these code systems were developed in parallel and didn't always know about each other. (Or when they did know, didn't care to strive for commonality.)

I get that not everybody will like the standard Ares command set, but I think that having a standard command set is a good thing for MUSH ease of use. Many games will have custom systems, of course, but by keeping the basic day-to-day commands (mail, page, channels, meetme, friends, etc.) consistent across games, it lowers barriers to entry.

FWIW these issues were discussed at length in this thread:
http://musoapbox.net/topic/1959/alternative-formats-to-mu

[Kumakun]

This post is deleted!

[Griatch]

All in-text commands or links/exits in Evennia can be made clickable when you play in the web browser or in telnet clients supporting the MXP standard. This is not a magic bullet either though - many find reaching for the mouse a distraction and that it ruins the UI experience (such as it is). So some devs are really taking things like that to heart while others find it more of a distraction and don't bothger. The opinions on what is 'newbie-friendly' varies a lot.

That said, Evennia's default command style is just that - a default. It looks a little like MUX-style commands partly to make it feel a little familar but also because the original creator of Evennia came from MUX. But you can change the command syntax to what you like. We have devs who prefer more MUD-reminiscent syntax while others want a more 'natural language' style of commands similar to interactive fiction. So in this regard, Evennia is not helping to 'unify' command styles. It would just not make sense since Evennia can be used for (almost) any text-based game style. Heck, someone's making a rogue-like (top-down scrolling map and all) in Evennia right now!

Commands aside - if you are to roleplay in this style of game you'll need to enter text somehow; but even the very aspect of writing text is a hurdle for the 'mainstream' gamer ... I remember a comment by one of the guys from Iron Realms (the company running some of the few remaining commercial MUDs), noting that they loose most of their new players the moment they leave the graphical chargen and are presented with the text interface for the first time.

[bored]

To echo a few, I know a lot of people here use roll20 or equivalents for non-MU tabletop (I had a D&D VTT game last night), and a lot of us tried out Storium when it came out.

Yet mostly, people still come back to MUing for that experience. Because these other options basically divide things in half, with roll20 et al taking the systems and Storium/forum style taking the community RP stuff. Neither handles both, and so if you want to play Vampire with 50 people... well, we know where that goes.

Put another way, most of the alternatives (forum/tumblr/etc style) are closer to the earliest talker and pure social-MU style games than what we've come to be used to. They accomplish loose, often consent-based RP, but not a lot more. Alternately, you can use VTTs to play the games but not bring in the people. Neither is a complete solution, and its hard to create that complete solution without a degree of complexity.

[friarzen]

@griatch, since you've gone ahead and mentioned my game (the rogue-like-ish) as something unique, I guess I'll take a moment to introduce myself to the community, as an outsider-looking-in. Besides reddit's /r/MUD forum, this seems to be the last surviving place where the community really gets together to chat about the hobby.

I guess I am, very much, trying to build "A new platform". I'm using Evennia as my base and working on features that most of you will probably hate, but are designed explicitly to attract a new player base, of which I feel I am a prime example of. That's probably it's own thread entirely, but I will say here that I am most definitely NOT going to have my game use the current sorta-standard syntax. Only the most intrepid newbies are willing to go through that learning curve.

Anyway, uh.... Hi.

[faraday]

@friarzen said in A new platform?:

Only the most intrepid newbies are willing to go through that learning curve.

It's kind of a catch-22 really. Only the most intrepid newbies are willing to suffer through the learning curve to use the old syntax. Only the most intrepid veterans are willing to try a new syntax - or so they say. When push comes to shove, if more games start using new platforms, will they go where their friends are? Time will tell I guess. Otherwise we're pretty stuck with the status quo.

What it comes down to, though, is looking at what makes a MUSH. As @bored mentioned, it's the combination of RPG elements and social elements, which makes it pretty unique. There's also the real-time aspect, which is both a blessing (the faster pace and ability to be entertained for a block of hours is what a lot of us love about MUSHes) and a curse (it's daunting to new players and those who can't make that kind of time commitment.)

[bored]

I think the 'the syntax has to be completely the same or the oldbies will rebel' is... exaggeration by the oldies for the sake of hating change (like most people do). Push come to shove, I do think people will play where they can play, so long as its achieving the functionality they desire. The key thing is... 'simplifying' or 'modernizing' the syntax doesn't guarantee that functionality remains untouched. That's what why Storium failed to hold MUers.

Its important to differentiate syntax from function. You can pretty things up or organize them how you like, but in a text interface how far can you get from '(qualified)verb objectlist' as your basic template? Sure, you can do 'get towel from basket' vs. 'get basket's towl' vs 'get/container basket towel'. You can do attack/ranged shotgun/dragonsbreath=punk imma pk vs... I dunno, some other horrendously complex thing, but all of those are going to hit limits based on simply what info the command needs to parse. In the first one always requires 4 pieces of information, a general command (get), a switch to a specific form of the command (/container, 's, from) and the two targets.

I'm not sure how you ever get away from that in text. And making buttons for web interfaces will still face that problem assuming you want that functionality - you don't just need an attack button, you need a pulldown for the weapon and ammo, maybe a list to click the target, etc.

[SquirrelTalk]

@lotherio I didn’t disagree with you; just commented that my personal preference didn’t lean towards roll20’s tabletop focus.

[faraday]

@bored said in A new platform?:

I think the 'the syntax has to be completely the same or the oldbies will rebel' is... exaggeration by the oldies for the sake of hating change (like most people do). Push come to shove, I do think people will play where they can play, so long as its achieving the functionality they desire.

To some extent I agree, but there are countless examples of people doing this - avoiding playing on Penn or Tiny because of the different channel syntax, acting like Rhost is some mysterious alien land, getting all up in arms over command syntax being different on one game versus another, etc.

I also agree that complex command syntax can't fundamentally be made much (if at all) simpler. But I think about 30 years of user interface design has proven pretty thoroughly that you can represent those complex interfaces in a far more intuitive way with GUI.

I mean... setting combat/stance Evade, combat/weapon Rifle=Scope is pretty simple as far as command lines go. But remembering all those commands compared to a GUI? No comparison IMHO.

[surreality]

@bored said in A new platform?:

I think the 'the syntax has to be completely the same or the oldbies will rebel' is... exaggeration by the oldies for the sake of hating change (like most people do). Push come to shove, I do think people will play where they can play, so long as its achieving the functionality they desire.

Seconding this. As it stands, with almost nothing 'standardized' across the board, we're already accustomed to having to learn a thing or three with each new game we try. It's not that fundamentally different in many respects.

I'm another of those people that'd find it weird to click a link in a browser window vs. type a command, but really, it's not the end of the world.

[Roz]

@bored said in A new platform?:

I think the 'the syntax has to be completely the same or the oldbies will rebel' is... exaggeration by the oldies for the sake of hating change (like most people do). Push come to shove, I do think people will play where they can play, so long as its achieving the functionality they desire.

100%. 1000%. Just offhand, I've seen multiple posts on here from folks who were like "Ugh I really didn't like the idea of XYZ in Ares, but then I got used to it and now I really love it." People just vastly overstate the difficulty of adapting to something new. Or, frankly, the idea that something modernized could actually be an improved experience.

[SquirrelTalk]

The closest thing I've found to what I was hoping for was Roleplaygateway https://www.roleplaygateway.com/roleplay/the-multiverse

You can create a game with a built in 'hub' chatroom like a OOC room, there are tabs for the characters and the information written for them; tabs for locations, I've even seen a grid with a graphical interface on some games, and you can make private rooms for scenes, the logs of which can be kept up and sorted by story arc.

The only problems are A) The scene rooms appear to be forum-play style exclusively, when I'd like the ability to do both when schedules don't quite match up; and B) It is ACTUALLY impossible to search for any specific type of game in its own system. There's a heaving mass of one-off games, and the search function literally doesn't work, and doesn't even pretend to offer the functionality to sort by genre, or give a dropdown list of tags to add or anything that might help sort through it; and, the eternal problem: how the heck do people find this? I mean, I did, but I had to strangle google to make it show me something other than Dragon Age.

Also it doesn't seem to have been updated by the people in charge for years. So, like MUing, it's kinda something you have to either already know about, or stumble onto/get invited to.

Something like this with more functionaity, more of a visual/graphic interface for things like bulletin boards and mail, but keeping the old style of live RP and ongoing stories, while allowing people to chuck poses in forum-style when they can't meet up live, would be pretty great imo.

[bored]

@faraday I think people have avoided it, so far, because the pressure hasn't truly existed. IE, people might like Penn better than MUX or whatever, and pick among those games where there are a ton of them with that being one (of possibly many) deciding preferences. Or 'the new thing' is just a single test case, while they can just as easily keep playing on their favorite WoD game.

If the older code actually started dying in favor of something new that was drawing new players and interest and whatever, I think the picture might be different. People just haven't actually been made to adapt, they've been allowed some degree of preference between similar choices.