Kushiel's Debut

[Shlappy]

@Cupcake What'd you do? Disagree with Skaldia?

[Cupcake]

In retrospect I can't say whether or not I deserved it. I OOCly started a negative rumor about my character (one feature I've never liked about certain rumor systems is that they're concerned IC only in context) that wasn't true. It was my mistake to expect people to question the rumor rather than take it as gospel. My character ended up getting dressed down by the king, who outright told her he knew it to be true and if she insisted on her innocence she was lying. I OOCly expressed that I thought this was taken to an unfair point (in retrospect, ICA=ICC, I guess?) and the staffer playing the king took umbrage with me for arguing about it. Practically the next day, a post went up from one of the other players that was basically "how dare anybody argue with our wonderful awesome staffers". It was basically a public finger-pointing without naming names, and I left.

[Shlappy]

@Cupcake No, no. That sounds like it's about par for the course. And that you argued probably had him throwing an epic tantrum to anyone in that inner circle that would listen. Because he does that. I kinda' see exactly how all of that went down even though I likely wasn't playing at the time.

[Arkandel]

@Cupcake said in Kushiel's Debut:

I OOCly started a negative rumor about my character (one feature I've never liked about certain rumor systems is that they're concerned IC only in context) that wasn't true.

I'm not sure what that means, can you elaborate please? Did you make an OOC post saying your character did <bad thing> for example?

[Cupcake]

@Arkandel I don't remember the specific means, but it was either a +rumor system or a bbpost in which I did a third party conversation blurb (two NPCs speculating) suggesting my character was making some political trouble by being jealous of a visiting high ranked noble.

It was a long time ago, so if my details are too fuzzy to be helpful, I apologize.

[Arkandel]

@Cupcake Nah, that's fine - I'm mostly confused about what the problem was. You made a post portraying your PC in a false, negative light (which is usually an OOC commendable thing to do) and the King believed the lie IC.

What's the issue?

[Cupcake]

For one thing, there was enough reliable background and established play to the character that indicated she was extremely loyal to the royal family and would make an effort to avoid tarnishing any reputations. That, and there was ample cause for quite a few people to be jealous of her. There was absolutely no question or consideration as to whether or not a rumor that experience with her as a person should have proven at least questionable.

I realize that the argument can be made that it's IC and I can't control the decisions other people make, but beyond that, there was also clearly a conversation about the scene between the staffer and the PC (or for all I know, the staffer using their PC as a mouthpiece, but I'm not going to make that accusation because I genuinely do not remember) player who decided to make a public post about not arguing with staffers or contradicting them. It was, to me, a very clear and public finger pointing.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Cupcake So your issue is with the OOC backlash against an IC argument you had? Because I don't personally think one can justifiably complain if you made up a rumor about your own character and people believed it IC.

[mietze]

I love it when people are willing to post negative (truthfully so or not) rumors about their PCs, or silly ones about others.

I guess whenever you put something negative out though you have to be prepared that there are many players who will take it as gospel truth, or that their PCs will. Sometimes that leads to fantastic RP but not always ending how you want. I do think that's why some players go absolutely batshit insane on any negative rumor posted about their PC, because of that fear that many people will take it as OOCly accurate.

However, the Some People generic but obviously targeted bbposts written by staff? Biggest pet peeve ever. And most of the time they don't even get it right. And quite a bit of the time they make the good/nice people worry while their target remains blissfully unaware. Yuck. I tend to be a fan of private conversation rather than "reminders" public that apply to like 1 or 2 people. It's just not necessary, and worries people unnecessarily, and there's really no reason to shame someone like that.

[surreality]

Eh, I can kinda see it in a 'if I stand on my head and squint' sort of way. As in, when that kind of thing comes from a known staff alt with major IC authority, it can be easy for people to assume there must be some OOC truth to it in addition to 'IC, this is perceived to be the case by this character, even if it's unrealistic for them to believe it' -- or at least more so than if a random individual on the game did the same thing.

[Arkandel]

@Cupcake Well, on one hand I can't quite agree there was something wrong with a rumor you started OOC yourself being believed by any PCs; after all the fact it became a rumor IC means someone believed it, right? It caught on, by definition and your own hand. So I can sort of kind of see a player feeling slighted if he's confronted about taking something that's on the board at face value, especially if - if they're extended the benefit of a doubt - they genuinely though you were asking for that kind of roleplay in the first place since you were the one who came up with it.

On the other hand though the gap between staff and characters, even NPCs, should be considerably wider than what's demonstrated. "Don't argue with staffers" is a dumb expectation - let alone game rule - to have as not only does the staffbit not convey infallibility but also because arguing with the DM is an honored RPG trope. Sure, doing so in the middle of the scene is frustrating since it interrupts its flow, and if someone's a chronic whiner it legitimises the intervention a bit but there's no evidence of that here.

In fact the rule probably does more harm than good, especially for a game whose runner just posted right on this thread that he didn't hear about a problem until it was too late. If you discourage your players from talking to you it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't.

[Cupcake]

@Arkandel said in Kushiel's Debut:

@Cupcake Well, on one hand I can't quite agree there was something wrong with a rumor you started OOC yourself being believed by any PCs; after all the fact it became a rumor IC means someone believed it, right? It caught on, by definition and your own hand.

I'm willing to concede on that point, but the aftermath involving a public post by a PC who wasn't present in the scene making an exact point about the situation I was in? Too on the nose, clearly meant to point fingers, and basically gave the presentation of a hostile atmosphere. That being said, it was also years ago, and I'm on to better things.

[GangOfDolls]

(Zooooooooombie thread riiiiiiiiiise aaaaarrrgggghhhh)

Okay so, I didn't want to post this to Gingerlily's apology because not the place/time.

But here's basically my thing:

My regular games are all hitting holiday horselatitudes.
My family just hits ffwd on the holidays so we don't do much.
I normally disappear into an MMO or something about now but I can't find anything that appeals this year.
I just want sooooooomething to do for a bit and the premise of KD sounds cool even though it sounds like a dumpster fire in other ways. I read through all of it and oy, but I figure I might be fine if I just show up for the lulz and don't get attached.

So is it even worth it that much?
Is this game still a thing?
If no and no, does anyone have any non-WOD/non-superheros/Transformer recommendations?

[Arkandel]

@GangOfDolls I played KD and left for unrelated reasons (basically my character's friends/cast fell off the side of the world). I know other things happened afterwards but while I was there the game was well made and cared for.

Having said that, I'd say Arx is the cool lords and ladies MU* these days - more active, and good staff. KD is similar, I'd say with more emphasis on TS/romance and less on politics, so pick your poison.

Either way they're both good places to play.

[GangOfDolls]

@Arkandel Thanks for your feedback! I'm not sure if Arx is homebrew or not? (I'm a high fantasy newb) But KD is a book series, yes? So in one or both of these cases, is not knowing the source material a high bar for entry?

[Arkandel]

@GangOfDolls Yeah, KD is based on the Kushiel's Legacy series by Jacqueline Carey, so while I found people were pretty accommodating with players unfamiliar with the source material (I was still reading it at the time) it can be intimidating to a newcomer. And those are some mother-loving huge-ass books.

Arx is its own thing, yes. It's inspired by grimdark fantasy books such as Joe Abercrombie's works.

I don't think you need to worry too much about knowing the material going into it in either case. Plus I'm sure someone from here is going to volunteer to give you a hand starting out in 5...4...3...

[Gingerlily]

@GangOfDolls

Argh, the thread RISES AGAIN

Kushiel's Debut has had some struggles, I'm the first to admit that. A time came when we had over 60 people logging in at a time and only two staffers, one of whom was me (Super overtaxed at certain points in time and just unable to give the game and its players any kind of consistent attention) and another who was Skaldia (People have shared their opinions of him elsewhere so I don't see a need to hash them again, he certainly upset and alienated plenty of folks with some bouts of temper and they were more than willing to share.) He too goes through periods of time where the pressures on him from outside the game stack up way too high and that can show. We're humans!

That being said a -lot- of changes have been made to the game since the time referenced in this thread. We have more than doubled our staff team, with most of the new additions there solely to focus on Storytelling, both staff Storytelling and helping to get a more robust system in place for PrP stories. It's starting off slowly with the holiday season upon us, but that gives the staff who are around these next few weeks time to work and brainstorm so we can be in a good place when people return from vacations.

I am aware there is a hot new game with Lords and Ladies action and politcs (Arx like @Arkandel said, I've been nudged to give it a try myself. People there seem to be enjoying it.)

However, what was true for KD in the past (That the game was pretty much focused on TS/romance and there was not enough in the way of politics, or that when there were political plots they were hard to get into...) that is changing in a big way. With a team of five instead of 2, we have the means to get a lot more going in the way of stories, both the 'Game of Houses' political machination stuff and other stories that touch upon what -is- the fantasy part of low fantasy. If that kind of story is what you want, it can be made to happen

Yes, this thread turned into a dumpster fire of mega proportions and there were a lot of frustrations and hurt feelings and emotion and tension that all found its way here in posts back and forth by separate groups. It was UGLY, so ugly that it's' been on my mind all this time and finally I decided to say some things and clear the air up as well as I could. There have been problems, I don't deny this. But I say with some confidence that there is a concerted effort on the part of many to move past those problems and return to what we wanted to be: an entertaining game filled with the frock drama of court and the political schemings of...court, with some Angels and some magic tossed in. We're really trying.

I did not apologize to the forum as a way to drum up interest again, but if there -is- interest that is fantastic, and I encourage you to give us a whirl. If it isn't your cup of tea in the end then move on and we will understand

Not being familiar with the novels is not a barrier since our wiki page has so much information and is constantly being added to. It might help, but it is not a prereqesite (some familiarity with at least the first one might be encouraged for playing certain types of characters.) There are many players who are very eager on the newbie channel to help people get started, and staff often will work with a player to make a new character as well.

So I'd say stop by, check it out, see what happens. Dumpster fires usually burn out.

-Ginger/Asherat

P.S. I would also like to very, very respectfully request that people who do have negative experiences that still resonate with them start a new thread somewhere for that. Go Hog Pit us away! If this thread could return to its original purpose of advertisement that would be awesome. I don't expect constructive criticism to never come up here, but the bashing, the pox on staff and all their Houses, might be better somewhere else. Thanks for considering this. :).

We -are- interested in hearing from players who left and are considering returning to share what it is they'd like to see more of, so that if politics or conflict or even more monster fights are something they wished they'd seen before we can try to accomodate.

For years KD was relatively drama free, part of why I liked it so much and the only reason I agreed to help staff because I /loathe/ the sort of stuff that went down last spring, I want to have fun same as you, not have to try to put out fires here and fires there until the entire dumpster catches (I'm really working this metaphor). Presently I find it is nicely drama free again, people come and they play and they share ideas and very little of my time is spent trying to mediate issues between people or otherwise doing emotional labor rather than 'coming up with cool ideas and sharing them' labor. That's exactly what -I- want in a game, and I imagine other people do too.

TL:DR...check it out. Maybe you'll love it, maybe you'll get frustrated or bored and move on, either way its okay

Hopefully we'll get to see you soon!

-Ginger

(PPS, THANKS for not bringing this up in the apology thread and letting that stand as it was, you are a peach! The both of you are peaches, and I am so appreciative of the concientousness in that decision.)

5,4,3,2,1 you were so close Ark but I'd already gone to bed. Luckily for us I have some insomnia tonight and figured some web browsing would distract me enough to sleep.

[Shlappy]

@GangOfDolls It really depends on what you're looking for, like anything else. It certainly had it's good points and bad points. I'm glad to hear, as Gingerlilly pointed out, that they have more staff now. It was desperately needed as they don't have very good code support. Hopefully that's changed. If they have more staff and a system of checks and balances, then I think you'll have a good time with it. If you're looking for something to mess around on for a while and not something that's going to suck you in, you're better off going with KD than Arx. Arx is pretty involved. That said, the game is not historically drama-free as Gingerlilly said, but it's not as bad as you're likely to find out with five minutes of research either. Things change, though. I wish KD the best of luck moving forward.

[Shlappy]

@Gingerlily

You're pretty keyed up. I think you need to relax and forget about this for a while. It is not your job to make apologies for how the game has been run in the past. Stop it. You made a mistake. An honest mistake I can't say I wouldn't have made myself. You're a school teacher. You know you don't need this crap. Take a step back and don't worry about it. I don't mean this to come off as mean, but I really doubt anyone cares enough about KD anymore to bash it.

[Arkandel]

@GangOfDolls Oh, one more thing. Arx is based on a different codebase than most MU* so you might find it unfamiliar for a while, and certain traditional commands are missing or are differently implemented.

KD is basically using World of Darkness 1.0 rules as its system.