Kushiel's Debut

Hella

Super not kidding. Your response, though, is exactly what I'd expect from you.

Bwahahahaha. You're kidding, right?

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

This whole issue has been an exercise in hypocrisy. Entertaining as fuck and I'm glad I followed the thread, but also hypocritical.

@Sunny did this same thing to people over on The Reach. There were plenty of Dunlin 'Elder' plots that the rest of us were excluded from, giving play only to a very small group of insiders+their friends, despite these plots having ramifications on the family as a whole. Where was the 'Oh why can't everyone be involved?' during that? Why is this now a big deal?

You're smoking crack, here. If the wiki were still up I'd point you to the logs of the bimonthly (that's twice a month) scenes I ran distributing metaplot information for months and months and months? That Mira put all the effort into the apocdoc for? I never ran any Dunlin Elder shit, not once, and I was barely involved in the plots that did run despite the fact that I was a faction head. You weren't excluded from shit. You excluded yourself from family scenes after you totally lost your shit on me OOC and tried to tell people I'd said you weren't welcome. We "cleared up the misunderstanding" and you participated again, but the reality of my time on TR is so dramatically different than what you're describing here it's laughable. Months and months of scenes whose sole purpose was to spread the Metaplot information as far and as wide as possible. This is fact. It's not my problem that you had such a problem with me that you refused to partake. You were a crazy bitch then, and you're a crazy bitch now.

You lost your OOC shit because of an IC fling you had with another player that went sour. Sorry that happened to you? Not sorry you went crazy over it and lashed out?
I was excluded. Others were excluded. They can jump in if they want to. Whether you ran the Dunlin Elder plots or not, you were involved and didn't make the move to get others involved, certainly didn't bitch quite this hard (or at all) that others were being excluded. You weren't running this KD plot, but felt the need to criticize because folks weren't being included. Same hypocrisy.

As for the FB message? Not ideal, that much I'll grant. But click delete, block, and it's gone. Instead of, you know, putting it up here for our amusement. For someone who claims not to want drama, there is a surfeit of things done to inspire it.

That's actually not even what happened in the thread. I said a rather polite 'I'm done' and that was that, at which point I got the e-mail from Skaldia, lost my temper, and posted it and the FB messages. I even specifically apologized because I'd lost my ability to be as graceful about this as I ought to be. It's not okay to harass someone outside of a game. It might be easy to deal with, but that doesn't make it an OK thing to do.

So essentially "I'm sorry but rather than actually being done, I'm going to drama anyway"?

Then there's this: "I complained quietly to one person when I was frustrated, a couple of times." "Then I logged off to take a break, and Ash shared the conversation we'd had with somebody else"
How are these things any different?

One is me expressing my frustration that I was running into as a player to another player. It's called griping. The other is taking a staff discussion and sharing it. I don't really care that she shared what I said. I care that she shared it with someone else with the express purpose of that person running off to bully me with it, that she was looking for validation instead of understanding, that she was focused more on 'poor me, look what I have to put up with' instead of acknowledging that there was a problem and bloody fixing it. THAT is why that bothered me.

One is you (were you a staff member at the time? Seems like you were but correct me if I'm wrong) bitching to another player. The other is another staff member bitching to another player who went and did something else. They are the same thing, even if you sugar coat it. That the person you bitched to didn't go off and bitch to said person doesn't make your actions any different. Just theirs.

Anyone who MUs knows that this will end badly. To be offended when it does is silly. You want to avoid drama but still get shit off your chest? Write it down in a (not online!) journal. Otherwise? Don't complain when the things you do are done to you.

I'll complain all I want to, snookums. If it were actually as you're trying to frame it, you'd have a point, but you're so far off in lala land (oh god I am so surprised) that it's basically babytown frolicks up in here.

Easy does it there, snookums.

Edited to add: In case anyone wasn't aware, @VulgarKitten was Lara on TR.

You know, in case you're one of the people who hasn't seen the playlist I posted publicly here ages ago saying that.

3543thrh67

I feel like this topic now needs moving to the hogpit. @Thenomain @Glitch @EmmahSue

Sunny

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

I was excluded. Others were excluded. They can jump in if they want to. Whether you ran the Dunlin Elder plots or not, you were involved and didn't make the move to get others involved, certainly didn't bitch quite this hard (or at all) that others were being excluded. You weren't running this KD plot, but felt the need to criticize because folks weren't being included. Same hypocrisy.

I did LOTS to work at including other people. That you didn't like how I did it doesn't negate the fact that I did do it, that I did get people involved, that I did distribute information. The bulk of my RP for like 5 OOC months was spreading plot. Yes, people were excluded. Thus, why I did what I did. To include people. With staff and other player support. Was I successful in getting everyone involved? Nope, probably not. Was the ultimate reason I finally left because of Spider and her excluding people? Why yes, yes, it was. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I didn't bitch this hard. Seriously, your retelling of this doesn't match reality even a little bit. As far as the bitchfit goes, yeah, it was all you. I was told, essentially, that you were a crazy bitch and to just leave it alone, because you were so ineffective in your gossipy whisper campaign that nobody who'd had anything to do with me there would buy for two minutes what you were selling. Thus, I did, you dug your own hole, everyone was chill.

So essentially "I'm sorry but rather than actually being done, I'm going to drama anyway"?

Sure. If that's your take on it.

One is you (were you a staff member at the time? Seems like you were but correct me if I'm wrong) bitching to another player. The other is another staff member bitching to another player who went and did something else. They are the same thing, even if you sugar coat it. That the person you bitched to didn't go off and bitch to said person doesn't make your actions any different. Just theirs.

There's a significant difference between what one does in an official capacity and what one does privately. The context of the information being shared -- and the content of that information -- is important. I am acknowledging that I did complain. Yep.

Shlappy

@VulgarKitten A marked difference there is that once someone sets down a boundary and says 'I need a break' and that boundary is broken, the person doing the breaking is the asshole in that situation. Every time.

Goyim

lookat these nerds getting mad at a gay sex game lmao

Shlappy

I firmly aknowledge that my take on plot and KD staff's take on plot are diametrically different.

Do I think I could do better? Oh heavens yes. In fact, I was in the middle of writing a PrP for KD to get quite a few people involved in that don't normally get to be involved in things. That went south with some miscommunication and staff bringing a character back from the dead after saying I could use their player-created group in said PrP...which was going to revolve around that. That sucks for me, but I really doubt Ash had any malicious intent towards me or anything like that. It did leave that PrP a bit dead in the water.

I take full responsibility that my reaction ended in: Pssht. Why bother?

But really...how could it not? Not that I need overwhelming appreciation for a well-crafted story, but if @Sunny's experience is any indication of the sort of 'thank you' one gets for trying to cater to the population of the game that isn't within the staff inner circle...

That sort of thing isn't very conducive to my creative process, sadly.

I sincerely wish all the best for KD and its players. I do hope for them that the current staff, which seems very disinterested in actually running a publicly-listed MUSH, steps down and takes a break. Let someone else run the game. I'm fairly certain that the majority would be the happier for it.

Ominous

@Arkandel said in Kushiel's Debut:

A plot like this was, to my understanding, never possible to include too many characters directly. It was always going to involve a few. I'd even go as far as to say some of the people complaniint the hardest now, had they been part of it, would not be championing the complaints of those who didn't - in fact I'd expect their protests to be worded similarly to what staff on KD did.

I was involved in the plot.

Arkandel

@Ominous Okay, keep going...

Shlappy

@Goyim Oh, there was all sorts of written smut there. Homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, bdsm...and so on. We didn't discriminate nor had I ever run into a problem concerning that. The nonsexual RP was a lot of fun too, for the record.

Edit: Also, did I miss a meeting? MUSHing always struck me as a fairly 'nerdy' hobby. Did MUSHing suddenly make you James Dean/Hugh Heffner/Joan Jett/etc? Fuck me. Why doesn't anyone wake me up for these revelations?

Ominous

@Arkandel said in Kushiel's Debut:

@Ominous Okay, keep going...

See my previous comments about this. I am on the side of this could have been handled better.

Personally I feel this is all the result of bad communication all around, and I would rather not get in the middle of this. However, you postulated that if people complaining had been involved in the plot they wouldn't have any problems with how things went down. I was involved in the plot and think it could have been handled better.

Goyim

@Shlappy

MUSHing always struck me as a fairly 'nerdy' hobby. Did MUSHing suddenly make you James Dean/Hugh Heffner/Joan Jett/etc?

By comparison to KD players?

Yes.

ThatGuyThere

@VulgarKitten
Was this Elder Dunlin plot on the Reach something that had affected the entire game as the plot on KD certainly sounds to have done?
If not then yay you have made a false equivalency.
Also nice job of blaming Sunny for mentioning the FB thing rather then the person who actually made the comments on her FB.

Hella

@Sunny said in Kushiel's Debut:

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

I was excluded. Others were excluded. They can jump in if they want to. Whether you ran the Dunlin Elder plots or not, you were involved and didn't make the move to get others involved, certainly didn't bitch quite this hard (or at all) that others were being excluded. You weren't running this KD plot, but felt the need to criticize because folks weren't being included. Same hypocrisy.

I did LOTS to work at including other people. That you didn't like how I did it doesn't negate the fact that I did do it, that I did get people involved, that I did distribute information. The bulk of my RP for like 5 OOC months was spreading plot. Yes, people were excluded. Thus, why I did what I did. To include people. With staff and other player support. Was I successful in getting everyone involved? Nope, probably not. Was the ultimate reason I finally left because of Spider and her excluding people? Why yes, yes, it was. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I didn't bitch this hard. Seriously, your retelling of this doesn't match reality even a little bit. As far as the bitchfit goes, yeah, it was all you. I was told, essentially, that you were a crazy bitch and to just leave it alone, because you were so ineffective in your gossipy whisper campaign that nobody who'd had anything to do with me there would buy for two minutes what you were selling. Thus, I did, you dug your own hole, everyone was chill.

Funny. A bunch of people said the same about you. Weird how that works. I think the exact phrasing was 'control freak with the tendency to bring IC to the OOC when it relates to relationships gone awry'. This particular situation (afaik) has nothing to do with that particular character trait. It seemed unnecessary to mention it but if you want to get into that kind of drama I can play.
As for getting people involved on TR, there were plenty of people bitching because you (and the others) were doing the exact opposite.
You left in a dramatic fashion because things weren't going your way, kind of like this situation. I remember you complaining to me about it, back when I thought we'd legit buried that hatchet.

So essentially "I'm sorry but rather than actually being done, I'm going to drama anyway"?

Sure. If that's your take on it.

One is you (were you a staff member at the time? Seems like you were but correct me if I'm wrong) bitching to another player. The other is another staff member bitching to another player who went and did something else. They are the same thing, even if you sugar coat it. That the person you bitched to didn't go off and bitch to said person doesn't make your actions any different. Just theirs.

There's a significant difference between what one does in an official capacity and what one does privately. The context of the information being shared -- and the content of that information -- is important. I am acknowledging that I did complain. Yep.

You were staff. You shared your grievances. This person was staff. They shared your grievances because your grievances were part of their grievances. It's the same thing.

Hella

@ThatGuyThere said in Kushiel's Debut:

@VulgarKitten
Was this Elder Dunlin plot on the Reach something that had affected the entire game as the plot on KD certainly sounds to have done?

Yay. Something something binding a big bad something that Dunlin had bound and was going to end the world.

If not then yay you have made a false equivalency.
Also nice job of blaming Sunny for mentioning the FB thing rather then the person who actually made the comments on her FB.

Did you miss the part where this was here:

@VulgarKitten
As for the FB message? Not ideal, that much I'll grant.

Sunny

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

Funny. A bunch of people said the same about you. Weird how that works. I think the exact phrasing was 'control freak with the tendency to bring IC to the OOC when it relates to relationships gone awry'. This particular situation (afaik) has nothing to do with that particular character trait. It seemed unnecessary to mention it but if you want to get into that kind of drama I can play.

Save that...this doesn't even have anything to do with the issue you and I had. Like. I think you're genuinely misremembering here. You came at me OOC because my character was an IC bitch about something. You had OOC issues with my PC's IC behavior and completely lost your shit.

As for getting people involved on TR, there were plenty of people bitching because you (and the others) were doing the exact opposite.

That's great. I didn't make everybody happy, the way I did things didn't. The fact of the matter is that I put a great deal of effort into trying to include people. Seriously. Open-to-everyone scenes every other weekend covering Metaplot 101, then sharing any new information people had. Me plot-hoarding and being exclusive is literally the furthest thing from the truth. You can bitch all day about how it was a bad effort or that I should have done something else instead, but you seriously cannot truthfully say I excluded people. There was a total of one person that was, due to their IC behavior, ICly not allowed to come to the meetings. One.

You left in a dramatic fashion because things weren't going your way, kind of like this situation. I remember you complaining to me about it, back when I thought we'd legit buried that hatchet.

Are you...just smoking crack? Do you seriously not remember this stuff and are just making things up to sound better? You're seriously going to...holy crap, woman. Do you have me mixed up with someone else in your head? I mean, I know you know I played Lili, but I think you're confusing Lili-stuff with other stuff. There's no other logical explanation here because you're so far off base. I left, after weeks of arguing with staff, triggered by Spider's treatment of Treya as a player. I have since had every single staffer involved in that situation with me apologize profusely about their behavior and how poorly handled the whole thing was, but that they were at the time so caught up with Spider-BS that they didn't realize it.

You were staff. You shared your grievances. This person was staff. They shared your grievances because your grievances were part of their grievances. It's the same thing.

Content and context are important. Period.

Hella

@Sunny said in Kushiel's Debut:

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

Funny. A bunch of people said the same about you. Weird how that works. I think the exact phrasing was 'control freak with the tendency to bring IC to the OOC when it relates to relationships gone awry'. This particular situation (afaik) has nothing to do with that particular character trait. It seemed unnecessary to mention it but if you want to get into that kind of drama I can play.

Save that...this doesn't even have anything to do with the issue you and I had. Like. I think you're genuinely misremembering here. You came at me OOC because my character was an IC bitch about something. You had OOC issues with my PC's IC behavior and completely lost your shit.

You came at me in a scene about some relationship after I had literally just joined the game and had maybe two scenes total. I said to you (OOC) that I wasn't having fun in the scene, mind if we FTB? And then you went apeshit. I heard from a crazy number of people 'Oh man, you shouldn't have said that to her, she's running a campaign against you now OOC'. I remember it accurately enough. It was a great first impression. Later, when we were hatchet burying, you apologized over it and told me that you were 'just raw because of how things had worked out for you IC'. Skipping now to the stuff that's relevant here in this situation...

As for getting people involved on TR, there were plenty of people bitching because you (and the others) were doing the exact opposite.

That's great. I didn't make everybody happy, the way I did things didn't. The fact of the matter is that I put a great deal of effort into trying to include people. Seriously. Open-to-everyone scenes every other weekend covering Metaplot 101, then sharing any new information people had. Me plot-hoarding and being exclusive is literally the furthest thing from the truth. You can bitch all day about how it was a bad effort or that I should have done something else instead, but you seriously cannot truthfully say I excluded people. There was a total of one person that was, due to their IC behavior, ICly not allowed to come to the meetings. One.

Not the way it appeared to a group of us Dunlins who were excluded, despite asking to be included.

You left in a dramatic fashion because things weren't going your way, kind of like this situation. I remember you complaining to me about it, back when I thought we'd legit buried that hatchet.

Are you...just smoking crack? Do you seriously not remember this stuff and are just making things up to sound better? You're seriously going to...holy crap, woman. Do you have me mixed up with someone else in your head? I mean, I know you know I played Lili, but I think you're confusing Lili-stuff with other stuff. There's no other logical explanation here because you're so far off base.

Is this all you've got?

You were staff. You shared your grievances. This person was staff. They shared your grievances because your grievances were part of their grievances. It's the same thing.

Content and context are important. Period.

So I think we've made all the points and now this is just going in circles?

Sunny

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

You came at me in a scene

Er, no. Lara came over to Lili's house and got in her face. Lili reacted poorly. I said nothing about the OOC spat to anyone until I got paged by Stan asking me if I knew you were bitching to anyone with an ear. Then the same thing, from Barnabas. I told them both what really happened and kind of wigged out because the ooc shittalking was a bit surprising/uncomfortable making. When we were chatting after the fact I did apologize that Lili reacted in a way that you found not fun, because the character was raw. You didn't just politely ask to FTB, either. You got in my virtual face about how wrong Lili's reactions were and how bad I was because you didn't enjoy that type of RP. After instigating it.

Not the way it appeared to a group of us Dunlins who were excluded, despite asking to be included.

Bboard posts detailing when the scenes were, how people could get involved, and what people could do were on the bboard regularly. If there were specific things that people were being excluded from I can guarantee it was coming from Spider, not me. She was leaving me out of the big Dunlin stuff, too -- so I went off and played metaplot because whatever.

Is this all you've got?

Yes. Because what you're saying is seriously not even close to true.

OrcRiot

~pauses in the middle of making his sandwich...~

"Go on..."

ixokai

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

@Sunny said in Kushiel's Debut:

As for getting people involved on TR, there were plenty of people bitching because you (and the others) were doing the exact opposite.

That's great. I didn't make everybody happy, the way I did things didn't. The fact of the matter is that I put a great deal of effort into trying to include people. Seriously. Open-to-everyone scenes every other weekend covering Metaplot 101, then sharing any new information people had. Me plot-hoarding and being exclusive is literally the furthest thing from the truth. You can bitch all day about how it was a bad effort or that I should have done something else instead, but you seriously cannot truthfully say I excluded people. There was a total of one person that was, due to their IC behavior, ICly not allowed to come to the meetings. One.

Not the way it appeared to a group of us Dunlins who were excluded, despite asking to be included.

Sorry, got to say: everyone was invited to those metaplot spreading scenes. Everyone. I was there for at least half of them. (And my character was the one had to be reined in to keep them open)

Hella

@Sunny said in Kushiel's Debut:

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

You came at me in a scene

Er, no. Lara came over to Lili's house and got in her face. Lili reacted poorly. I said nothing about the OOC spat to anyone until I got paged by Stan asking me if I knew you were bitching to anyone with an ear. Then the same thing, from Barnabas. I told them both what really happened and kind of wigged out because the ooc shittalking was a bit surprising/uncomfortable making. When we were chatting after the fact I did apologize that Lili reacted in a way that you found not fun, because the character was raw. You didn't just politely ask to FTB, either. You got in my virtual face about how wrong Lili's reactions were and how bad I was because you didn't enjoy that type of RP. After instigating it.

Not even remotely true and I heard from Ross and Lucas and Tank and several others how you were bitching that I'd even dare to ask to FTB and tell you that I wasn't having fun playing the scene. 'Oh, and you probably shouldn't make any more joking comments about her ex-bf's dick in a scene because she's OOCly mad about that part. That's why she ICly freaked out on you'. Lara came over to Soleil's house and apologized, and you turned the scene into something vastly unpleasant because of OOC jealousy. So I asked (and it was very politely) to FTB.

Not the way it appeared to a group of us Dunlins who were excluded, despite asking to be included.

Bboard posts detailing when the scenes were, how people could get involved, and what people could do were on the bboard regularly. If there were specific things that people were being excluded from I can guarantee it was coming from Spider, not me. She was leaving me out of the big Dunlin stuff, too -- so I went off and played metaplot because whatever.

But you were involved with the Dunlin Elder stuff in a lot of ways. And you never fought for the rest of us to be involved. That's why this smacks of hypocrisy to me. You get all up in arms in this case, but back then it was 'oh, well, not everyone can be involved in everything'.

Is this all you've got?

Yes. Because what you're saying is seriously not even close to true.