Sexuality: IC and OOC

[Auspice]

@Thenomain said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

I am constantly surprised at the antagonism that bisexuals get. Here is someone who is more open to physical encounters than most people. What the tribalism fuck is going on that this is a bad thing.

There's a lot of perception that people who are bi are selfish, are more likely to cheat (because somehow being attracted to more people gives you fewer morals? I dunno; I don't get it)...

...and then there's the whole 'just pick a side.' Men get that more than women, tho. Like, there's the whole 'gold star' thing where there's lesbians who refuse to be with a woman who has ever been with a man, but a lot of bi guys I've met have told me about how the gay community has this whole perception of them being 'too scared' to just choose to be gay and then it becomes a bullying thing.

Then the worst one, IMO: that people who are bi aren't 'really' queer because we can 'pass as straight.'

It super sucks to get shit on from both sides, as it were. Straight people give you shit because you're 'selfish' or 'you're just a cheater!' and the gay community gives you shit because you're gross for sometimes being in hetero relationships or because you can 'pass.'

[Thenomain]

@Auspice

Well it’s fucking stupid.

There is no single sexuality that doesn’t have its shitlords. This has nothing to do with the sexuality, but with humanity.

That bisexuals get treated this way for being bisexual is strong evidence to this conclusion.

[saosmash]

I've spent some time thinking about this. I know I used to be nervous about apping male characters on new games because of the stigma I expected as a cis, heterosexual woman playing gay or bisexual men. But I eventually got over this because I discovered over time that as long as you demonstrate that you are playing people who are people first, as opposed to sexuality-shaped kinkboxes of whatever dimension, people who are worth RPing with will RP with you, and people who are assholes will be assholes.

I do play a lot of bisexuals. I can be a boring straight white girl in my real life, there's no need to explore that in my RP. I used to play straight boys sometimes, but eh. I've written a few ace characters and received occasional forays into people who don't "get" why you would do that or I guess ... want to "convert" your ace character, which isn't really how anything works, but people do it to real ace folks all the time so I guess it's ... verisimilitude??

On Arx, did run into several people playing (or playing about) nonexistent homophobia, similar to people playing or reacting to nonexistent sexism. Frustrating when people try to sandbox away the parts of the theme that make it interesting and/or enlightened.

Mostly, otherwise, I've lately played on a lot of small games and haven't gotten a lot of shit OOC or IC for sexuality-related things because I'm largely playing in small groups with people I trust not to be assholes. And occasional issues with, I guess, bizarre and idiotic rumors being spread about me and the sexuality of my characters behind people's backs, but it's got the T-shirt on that at this point.

[surreality]

@Thenomain @Auspice Preach.

Hell, some days I wonder if I didn't end up bi because I'm so fucking picky when it comes to people, rather than the reverse. (This is... mostly a joke. But only mostly.)

(Generic) you the person either works or doesn't for me.

'Has <genital>' could never be as important to me as 'has a sense of humor'. 'Identifies as <gender>' couldn't come within light years of 'identifies other human beings as people to treat with respect and common decency as a default setting'.

People can and will make anything out to be a bad thing by skewing it and twisting it and all the rest. I don't think thinking like I do is a bad thing in this case, and it's one of the precious few things no one could ever convince me otherwise about.

[Prototart]

@surreality said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

Grar #2 emerges because so many of the guys that do this go on about how 'they do it right' or 'they are too enlightened to fall into those fetishistic traps' and so on, while blatantly ignoring that difference in social conditioning re: sexuality that men and women experience is proof they are not so fucking enlightened as they think.

the new fetish is making sure everybody knows how woke and enlightened you are while you continue to be gross af in other ways and in places where fewer people see

[surreality]

@Prototart That is such a fucking truth.

Look, straight white guys. Please, don't play lesbians to show your woke-i-tude. Wokefulness. Wokeaholism... woke-ever.

It fails spectacularly at the task.

[Arkandel]

@surreality said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

@Prototart That is such a fucking truth.

Look, straight white guys. Please, don't play lesbians to show your woke-i-tude. Wokefulness. Wokeaholism... woke-ever.

I'll go up one level; don't play anything to support an agenda. That's not what playing games is for, and it won't go over well when things which typically happen in games affect that agenda.

[surreality]

@Arkandel ...I would very much like to bronze that post.

@Arkandel said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

don't play anything to support an agenda. That's not what playing games is for, and it won't go over well when things which typically happen in games affect that agenda.

This needs bronzing. It needs inscribing in elegant calligraphic script ninety feet high. The color of the sky in my world now has this as an addendum thanks to a talented skywriter.

This is so common, though.

And I will say this: this is my relax and unwind time. Yes, sometimes ugly things happen that disrupt it that fall under the *ist umbrellas, and my fun gets screwed up.

It gets a whole lore more screwed up if I feel like I'm expected to, at all times, be hyper-vigilant about what everyone is saying and doing around me as translated through the most paranoid and persecuted lens possible, reading for things to be offended by at all times. I will simply not do this to myself, or allow people to shit that hard all over my enjoyment of the hobby.

[mietze]

I find it easier these days on my game to just slip off a channel or leave if there's someone there who's being obnoxious ooc. Whether that is mansplaining, just being an arrogant offputting ass or super TMI.

If it looks like it's bleeding into ICness (like someone loudly complaining IC about how stupid and useless a voluntary, social event is that they have chosen to attend) then I respond IC, which tends to make someone who was primarily using it as a passive aggressive attempt to OOCly complain either shut up or leave since they don't have any ACTUAL interest in RPing about it, or it turns into something fun and bantery if being an ass was actually just an IC thing.

Obnoxious people are obnoxious. I'm cautious about thinking anyone has an agenda per se rather than being just a selfish dick, just because accusing someone of "well of course you only play that kind of PC to promote your SJW agenda" is something that is used sometimes to silence or shame people.

I think "that guy is playing to an agenda" is as likely to mean "I don't like that type of character" as anything else. I don't automatically assume that someone playing an obnoxious bigot or mean person is playing to an agenda either. It could be that someone playing the Woke AF SJW is well aware, like someone playing a bully PC, that they are obnoxious IC. Or they're like other players of obnoxious PCs of any stripe, where they are either selfcentered or unable to be discerning of others around them enjoying the play, or well, they just like being dicks.

[surreality]

@mietze I'm not describing a guess.

I'm describing guys I have personally known who talk about their wokefulness, how they are 'not like all those other guys', and how they play a lesbian 'right'.

Spoiler alert: they don't.

[Kanye Qwest]

is there a right way to be a lesbian?? damn. Is there a right way to be mostly staight but also bisexual but not biromantic but also kind of whatever about people in general??

No one told me.

[surreality]

@Kanye-Qwest These dudes clearly think there is, and that they have it down to a science.

On some levels, it's substantially more offensive than the guys who just make the anime-inspired fetish creations that are absurd on their face, as most take some of the most insidious bullshit notions of 'what women are like' and dial them up to thirteen.

There's the 'sulky pouty-face insecure' when not the center of attention, while acting very brazenly in ways most insecure women don't as the norm. Explosive emotive outbursts are 'a girl thing'. They will get huffy at the drop of a hat over shit to the degree that none of us would have survived junior high if we were that histrionic. Being shallow as fuck about their appearance -- or conversely, hipster-style 'SEE HOW LITTLE ATTENTION I PAY TO FASHION I'M SO EDGY!' The manic pixie dream girl trope is common.

[saosmash]

Manic pixie dreamgirls are everywhere. They are not always played by men, either.

[surreality]

I'm just going to opt out now.

Your clique may have the thread to keep discounting my experiences as having existed in reality, as they do.

Do enjoy!

<steps out>

[saosmash]

@surreality I was agreeing with you?

[saosmash]

Like, sorry for double post, but to clarify, my point was more that manic pixie dreamgirl is one of those tropes that is definitely popularized based on its relevance to MEN, and I don't doubt that dudes playing lesbians often think they are being "chic" about this, but I've seen female players fall into the same trap. I think the extensive appearance of the trope in all forms of media contributes to that a great deal. People thinking that it's a "right" way to play a woman because that's how they seem women portrayed all over the place -- even people who should know better.

[Ganymede]

@saosmash said in Sexuality: IC and OOC:

Like, sorry for double post, but to clarify, my point was more that manic pixie dreamgirl is one of those tropes that is definitely popularized based on its relevance to MEN, and I don't doubt that dudes playing lesbians often think they are being "chic" about this, but I've seen female players fall into the same trap.

My transgender friend fell into the same trap, and it was pretty fucking annoying. Like, yeah, I accept that you are a woman, but grown-ass women don't traipse about yammering about dress cuts and purses in polite company.

I mean, often.

Shit.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Ganymede some women absolutely do. Some people can't read a room. Some people really like fashion.

[Auspice]

The only time it is acceptable is when your skirt/dress has pockets.

[Sparks]

iRL, I'm a asexual demiromantic, which is a concise but fancy way of saying "I have zero interest in mashing squishy bits together with anyone, regardless of what bits those are, but I can still feel romantic attachment to people based on an emotional connection".

And in the past few years, I've played different characters with a wide variety of sexual preferences that don't match my own—although admittedly way less male characters than I used to—but it's almost never been a problem, as their sexuality is often not super key to their day-to-day RP. (Save, admittedly, for one character who was bisexual but internally terrified of making emotional ties to anyone, because then she'd feel anchored in one place and unable to pick up and run if she had to. So she played it off as 'I just have fun' and had a rule of "I will sleep with basically anyone once, and never a second time." And for that one character, the strings-free on-a-whim once-only sex with anyone was actually a fairly key part of her never-let-anyone-too-close characterization.)

There's only one situation that really stands out to me where someone was terrible to me about my character's IC sexuality (on which, more later).

However, I have a friend who ends up playing trans women fairly often when the setting allows for it; and wow do they get some flak for that choice in various places. People are like, "This is an imaginary character, why would you do that to her? Just make her a woman outright." "I'm not transphobic, but... that's just such a strange choice. What's wrong with you that you'd want to put your character through that?" and things like that.

And I have also personally actually gotten flak OOCly from some people for my iRL sexuality when it comes up, because there are definitely not a shortage of people out there who don't think asexuality is actually a thing. "Oh, you just haven't met the right person; have you tried online dating?" "Oh, everyone loves sex. There's just something chemically wrong with your libido; you should look into medication to correct that!." "You're just afraid to try it; trust me, I promise you'd love it if you just gave it more of a chance." And so on. (Sadly, this is not remotely limited to online interactions.)

I'm sure many of them even think they're trying to help by basically going "Here, let me assure you that your sexuality isn't a real thing, and can even probably be cured!" Because, hey, they figure sex is awesome, right? But... try to envision telling a gay or lesbian person that their sexuality could be 'cured' by just sleeping with the opposite sex enough times, or with medication/chemicals. It's not a good look.

And when I played an asexual character on a game, I did have someone get OOCly mad at me that my character wasn't up to smash squishy bits even though he was not attached and thus 'up for grabs' and how that was 'unrealistic' that someone wouldn't want sex at all; that's the one incident that stands out in my mind about someone being terrible about my character's IC sexuality. (Bonus that it was one of the few times I've actually openly played my own sexuality as a character, so, y'know, great feeling there!)

So I've definitely observed people being terrible over someone's sexuality or gender identity, both secondhand and firsthand, regardless of whether it's IC or OOC. I like to think that's not nearly so widespread—or necessarily as deliberate—as it used to be, but yeah... there is still definitely some really awful behavior I've seen out there in the RP community in general to trip over.

...also this post was a little bit verbose and rambling, for which I apologize.