If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP

[fatefan]

I will admit I'm about at the end of my rope on this issue, at least when it comes to superhero/comics games.

I've offered specific scene ideas on various chat channels and in OOC lounges; I've offered to do so on the fly for any takers; I've @mailed people to try to schedule scenes; I've even set up a round or two of a scene customized for another player and had that player log out in the middle of it, no later explanation provided. All I tend to get are alts at risk of inactivity because trying to get scenes for logs is apparently now a Herculean task for me.

I'm starting to think I must be doing something that just doesn't jive with MUSH culture any more. Is it just time to hang it up and find some other way to use my time?

[faraday]

@Florida-Man On MMOs you'll certainly see folks hanging out on the TeamSpeak or Discord servers just to chat with their guildmates even when they're not "play-ok". Other online RP forums will see people visiting the forums or chat during their downtime even when they can't actually RP. Still others are built so that "RP" doesn't involve a 3-hour-solid time commitment, or have a culture where there's no OOC interaction at all, so those are kind of apples vs oranges. Even TTRPG players will often spend a bunch of the evening gabbing while waiting for something/someone or just for fun.

I don't really think it's unique to MUSHes, except that on a MUSH there seems to be this unreasonable expectation that "oh you're logged in, clearly you should be here to play".

[Florida Man]

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I don't really think it's unique to MUSHes, except that on a MUSH there seems to be this unreasonable expectation that "oh you're logged in, clearly you should be here to play".

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

[Tinuviel]

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I don't really think it's unique to MUSHes, except that on a MUSH there seems to be this unreasonable expectation that "oh you're logged in, clearly you should be here to play".

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

You're not the only person that exists.

[faraday]

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

Logging in only to play is certainly not unreasonable. That's your choice. Just as someone can join a baseball team, attend each game/practice faithfully, never speak to another soul on the team outside of game-related conversation, and then go home. There's nothing wrong with that, but expecting everyone else to do it too is unreasonable. Communities socialize. Like it or not, MUSHes are communities. It's not just about the game.

[Florida Man]

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

Logging in only to play is certainly not unreasonable. That's your choice. Just as someone can join a baseball team, attend each game/practice faithfully, never speak to another soul on the team outside of game-related conversation, and then go home. There's nothing wrong with that, but expecting everyone else to do it too is unreasonable. Communities socialize. Like it or not, MUSHes are communities. It's not just about the game.

Well, if I come onto a game to play the game, and none of the people on it are interested in playing the game, that's a bad game. Zero stars. I don't want to be on that kind of "game." Especially if I have to go through this multi-hour application process to get a character on it.

[Tinuviel]

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

Logging in only to play is certainly not unreasonable. That's your choice. Just as someone can join a baseball team, attend each game/practice faithfully, never speak to another soul on the team outside of game-related conversation, and then go home. There's nothing wrong with that, but expecting everyone else to do it too is unreasonable. Communities socialize. Like it or not, MUSHes are communities. It's not just about the game.

Well, if I come onto a game to play the game, and none of the people on it are interested in playing the game, that's a bad game. Zero stars. I don't want to be on that kind of "game." Especially if I have to go through this multi-hour application process to get a character on it.

There's a difference between "not playing" and "not playing right now."

[Florida Man]

@Tinuviel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

Logging in only to play is certainly not unreasonable. That's your choice. Just as someone can join a baseball team, attend each game/practice faithfully, never speak to another soul on the team outside of game-related conversation, and then go home. There's nothing wrong with that, but expecting everyone else to do it too is unreasonable. Communities socialize. Like it or not, MUSHes are communities. It's not just about the game.

Well, if I come onto a game to play the game, and none of the people on it are interested in playing the game, that's a bad game. Zero stars. I don't want to be on that kind of "game." Especially if I have to go through this multi-hour application process to get a character on it.

There's a difference between "not playing" and "not playing right now."

Whatever you say, hoss. If people aren't playing a game after trying to find something a few times (preferably on different days), the game sucks, and so do the people on it. You can only "not play right now" for so long before it's reasonable to write you off. Next.

[krmbm]

[Steven Universe]

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Tinuviel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

Logging in only to play is certainly not unreasonable. That's your choice. Just as someone can join a baseball team, attend each game/practice faithfully, never speak to another soul on the team outside of game-related conversation, and then go home. There's nothing wrong with that, but expecting everyone else to do it too is unreasonable. Communities socialize. Like it or not, MUSHes are communities. It's not just about the game.

Well, if I come onto a game to play the game, and none of the people on it are interested in playing the game, that's a bad game. Zero stars. I don't want to be on that kind of "game." Especially if I have to go through this multi-hour application process to get a character on it.

There's a difference between "not playing" and "not playing right now."

Whatever you say, hoss. If people aren't playing a game after trying to find something a few times (preferably on different days), the game sucks, and so do the people on it. You can only "not play right now" for so long before it's reasonable to write you off. Next.

I find this response pretty interesting. There is a game I log into where I can't always play and there is a new/newer player with a few alts that asks for RP a lot. For me, I have a lot of the constraints others have talked about here (work/adulting/etc) and can't always consistently play. Sometimes I'll log in when I can't play yet because I know in "x amount of time" I should be free and I maybe can line something up for later. This new person though is so thirsty that its kind of a turnoff. It makes me feel like expectations will be too high. Mix in the PCs this player plays appear to be the kind that are "special" or "different" in a way that means it'll probably be an additional effort in RP and that equals a big nope from me.

[Lotherio]

@Steven-Universe said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Sometimes I'll log in when I can't play yet because I know in "x amount of time" I should be free and I maybe can line something up for later. This new person though is so thirsty that its kind of a turnoff

Regardless of the intent of troller, I do think this is the crux of the situation. Both are a turnoff, but feels like neither side is saying 'okay, how can I change to contribute to the community.'

The folks only on to chat with friends to line up RP for later is a turnoff for some that likes spontaneity, as much as the hyper thirsty new player always asking for RP can be. And I see nothing wrong with a player asking sporadically throughout the day, multiple days, on appropriate channels for RP - that's the purpose of the channel. I do see a little issue with, by judging the wiki of this PC, its determined they want 'special' rp is a bit judgey.

I do agree with what some have said, instead of just asking at regular intervals, that time could be devoted to researching other characters on the game and offering a hook for RP instead of 'what do you want to do today, I don't know, what do you want to do'.

Inversely, instead of writing off someone who asks for RP as special or different or needy, maybe the time lining up could be spent paging them as well 'I'm not available now, maybe we can figure something out to RP when I/we both have time.'

Otherwise, its a two way street with an island in the middle no one wants to cross. I've had some great RP with random strangers, where I've taken their 'anyone want to rp' and hobbled something together, as much as it was a real sinker. But same with lining up something, sometimes its a basic lets met, my char has a question about the murder case for you and its great in the end, but other times its like 50 pages of back and forth, well my char would do this, maybe your char should approach it this where, to the point it feels like we've basically concluded the scene and are just RP'ing it to fill in the words the characters would say already knowing the conclusion.

[faraday]

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

The folks only on to chat with friends to line up RP for later is a turnoff for some that likes spontaneity, as much as the hyper thirsty new player always asking for RP can be.

I think that instead of expecting people to compromise on a game that we're doing for our own enjoyment, we just need more recognition that people play these games differently and that's okay.

If you're playing the game at all, then you're contributing to the game's story and community in your own way. Even private scenes with friends often have ripples to other players. And if Bob and Mary are only ever holed up in their hideout never RPing with anybody but each other, they're not actually doing any harm to the game (especially compared to if they weren't there at all.)

There's nothing wrong with walking away from a game if it's not a good fit for you. But let's not forget that these are games. Expecting me to spend my precious free time playing a kind of game I don't like, or in a way I don't like, is... kind of weird.

[Lotherio]

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I think that instead of expecting people to compromise on a game that we're doing for our own enjoyment, we just need more recognition that people play these games differently and that's okay.

I think this is oddly where I was trying to go. Instead of 'everyone is idle' or 'this person asking for rp is hyper' recognize the difference. Walk away is one option, but if someone likes the theme and wants to stay, they may have to adapt their expectations.

Honestly I'm good with both.

[faraday]

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Honestly I'm good with both.

Yeah and I should clarify too - I think it's best if folks do try to meet in the middle a little. It just makes for a healthier game overall if more people are able to engage with it and have fun. I may do a random scene with a new player just to make them feel welcome, or make a token appearance at a party (even though I generally dislike random/big scenes), because those efforts can pay dividends in the long-run of ensuring that the game still has critical mass of players logging in to stay open.

But expecting people to do that, and accusing them of being selfish/elitist/sucking/whatever if they don't? That, I think, is not right. It's a game, not an obligation. (That's not directed at your remark personally; just in general.)

[Derp]

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I think that instead of expecting people to compromise on a game that we're doing for our own enjoyment, we just need more recognition that people play these games differently and that's okay.

@faraday said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I think it's best if folks do try to meet in the middle a little.

I think that both of these points are valid. But I would also like to add a third:

Staff needs to get better at saying 'this is what our vision of the game is, and the kinds of things that we are expecting. If this is not what you want, then this isn't the game for you.

Lots of the fights that come up on games is because there is no clear vision for what the feel of the game should be. Take WoD for example. You have a werewolf. But what feel for werewolf? Some people are gonna try to play Garth from Supernatural, campy and awkward and human and relatable, and another is gonna try to play The Howling. Those two playstyles are not compatible, and are going to create dissonance in your game. So you need to clarify which one you want to see.

Same goes with how horrific said horror game should be. Some people are gonna play Supernatural. Some people are gonna play Nightmare on Elm Street. And when those two playstyles meet, you get the bitching about agency and triggers and such, because nobody ever laid those lines down and said something like "this is a game where you can expect to be victimized regularly by supernatural forces, so this may not be your kind of game."

We really need to get better at figuring that kind of stuff out, because that's where a lot of the divides tend to come from. Games trying to cater to as many people as possible while not giving a clear indication of what players can expect to find (or not) and what staff are expecting to see. Thus, you get your various tribes that each talk shit about the other and never RP, because they both think they're absolutely in the right.

[Thenomain]

@Derp said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Staff needs to get better at saying 'this is what our vision of the game is, and the kinds of things that we are expecting. If this is not what you want, then this isn't the game for you.

Needs framed and displayed prominently on a poster involving a kitten, or a dog dressed as a chemist.

[Ghost]

@Derp said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Staff needs to get better at saying 'this is what our vision of the game is, and the kinds of things that we are expecting. If this is not what you want, then this isn't the game for you.

I really do think the players who join a mush and then run off to some corner to play their private sandbox version of the game do more damage than good. Joining a WoD game and then using it to make an anime character to recreate Tokyo Ghoul, while not illegal, is no bueno.

A clear genre/vision to help make sure everyone is actually playing the same game and the same setting does wonders for cohesion and keeping people from ostracizing others.

[Taika]

takes notes Writing a 'Spirit of the Game' is one of the things on my to-do list for CoS.

[Ghost]

@Taika said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

takes notes Writing a 'Spirit of the Game' is one of the things on my to-do list for CoS.

Careful, because here's something to keep in mind:

If you're writing a "spirit of the game" or "what this game is and if you don't like it please don't join" concept, you should probably consider a policy as to how this is handled. There's a high probability that someone may still join and say "Don't wrongfun me, just leave me alone and let me do my thing" or "Trust me, this anime concept will work, you'll see."

Probably a good idea to know/state how you intend to deal with that.

ETA: I personally believe games would be better off for doing this in the long run (because, really, you don't demand that Lil John gets played at a Cowboy bar; ya just don't), but expect growing pains.

[Thenomain]

@Ghost said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Don't wrongfun me

By logging into a game you agree to play the game. Not your game. The game that you logged into play.

Whether or not "your" game is fun is not in anyone's interest. Really, we all want to have fun, but the game that you log into is not your game.

--

But here's where I do the Theno game and throw some anti-establishment into it: Sometimes it's not staff's game either. Even staff should be beholden to the game. The rules, the theme, and the allowances that the game makes.

So as long as you, the player, fall within the allowances of the game—theme and setting and culture—and as long as staff does too, then this conversation becomes moot. Staff may ask you to tweak your behavior for the theme, setting, or culture, but the amount that a lot of us are used to staff doing things for their own whim, or for what appears to be "because I said so", then these staff are wrong.

It may get to that. It may get to that if a player is so oblivious, or stubborn, or trolling, that "because I say so" is the only answer left, but let's be reasonable and assume this kind of staff has also tried to be reasonable.

That is, without people giving other people the benefit of the doubt, none of this works. Not the help files, not the staff-player interaction, none of it. It returns to being the same kind of embarrassingly bad staff-player reactions that we in the WoD community and those from the Firan community and even players from the old Pern community have lived with for far too long.

--

Or in other words: I agree.