@Pandora said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
What is the difference between writing good text sex and getting a staffer's love and attention, or writing good combat text and getting a staffer's love and attention, or writing good adventuring text and getting a staffer's love and attention?
This obsession with TS like it is some unholy grail of moral depravity is crazy levels of shaming.
Eh, I'm fairly sex-positive and don't care who does what. People wanna TS? Go for it. People wanna TS non-vanilla stuff? Go for it.
It's probably a better conversation for a different thread (so I won't derail here), but I think the answer to your question lies in some very unspoken opinions in the community that may be based in the opinion-holder's own little guilty secrets.
(In other words, I dont think the obsession with TS as depravity/moral issue is actual that at all. I think almost everyone is TSing, and as a byproduct of perhaps a history of securing benefit through TS, worries that IC romance may have compromised them Oocly, and jealousy related to not being chosen for IC romance over another player (or the assumption that players choose players for TS which is a wtf minefield) drive the witch hunt for TS and favoritism.)
But that's just a theory. Cheaters like to accuse of cheating.
But I'm gonna hard stop on this line of thinking, because, you know...
"Human dreams... such fertile ground for the seeds of torment."
@saosmash said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
But if a staffer wants to create sexually themed story, there's nothing at all wrong with that, and assuming that all scenarios in which sex happens with a staff NPC are in that category is bullshit. Pretending that this is what is always happening does a disservice to like... everyone.
To me there is a meaningful distinction between sexually themed and TS which is about as wide as the difference between HBO and Porn. For instance if the King is getting a blowjob at the same time he's holding an audience with a PC, that is sexually themed but it's not TS because the scene is about the audience and not the blowjob. I don't think anyone has a problem with scenes that have explicit sexual content in appropriate context.
That said the worst staff scene experience I've ever had was when my character was sneaking into some building and the staff basically powerposed my PC giving the guard a sexual favor to get past and I was just too shocked at the fact he did that to object. To some extent that experience colors my view on sex in scenes with NPCs because if the NPC initiates it can put the players in a really awkward position.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
@Groth Once I made the mistake of giving my phone number out to a staffer.
He called repeatedly on random nights asking me to log on and role play (TS) with his wife. When I tried to get away, they nuked my character.
Gotta get away from this thread, now. I'm hearing this creepy classical music and if I don't put this box down, it's gonna open. 
@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Roz said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
"you're too emotional" is a common derailing tactic in debate used against women who express any sort of investment in what they're arguing about.
Which would be more valid if he implied it was because she was a woman, and not just a person getting emotional.
Telling someone you believe they are getting to emotional is perfectly fine. I think that people are reading some kind of sexism into the statement that Thenomain didn't put in there.
People, regardless of sex, can in fact be getting too emotional.
He wanted to know why people were reacting the way they were, and I was just explaining, since he asked for further explanation.
@Roz said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Roz said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
"you're too emotional" is a common derailing tactic in debate used against women who express any sort of investment in what they're arguing about.
Which would be more valid if he implied it was because she was a woman, and not just a person getting emotional.
Telling someone you believe they are getting to emotional is perfectly fine. I think that people are reading some kind of sexism into the statement that Thenomain didn't put in there.
People, regardless of sex, can in fact be getting too emotional.
He wanted to know why people were reacting the way they were, and I was just explaining, since he asked for further explanation.
And he's questioning them in a logical manner.
I get it.
I've also backed off and apologized to the party directly affected, and thanked Roz privately for the consideration.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Roz said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Roz said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
"you're too emotional" is a common derailing tactic in debate used against women who express any sort of investment in what they're arguing about.
Which would be more valid if he implied it was because she was a woman, and not just a person getting emotional.
Telling someone you believe they are getting to emotional is perfectly fine. I think that people are reading some kind of sexism into the statement that Thenomain didn't put in there.
People, regardless of sex, can in fact be getting too emotional.
He wanted to know why people were reacting the way they were, and I was just explaining, since he asked for further explanation.
And he's questioning them in a logical manner.
I get it.
I've also backed off and apologized to the party directly affected, and thanked Roz privately for the consideration.
Apology was indeed given and accepted. All is well.
Back on the topic:
I'm not attempting to make the point that sexually charged RP doesn't or can't lead to bias. It has, it can, it will. My point is that it's misbehavior when it happens, and if it's going to happen, the misbehavior is going to happen in some other way if this isn't possible, because the problem you have is an unethical staffer, NOT that said unethical staffer was typing sex.
If you, as a person, are the sort of person who knows that you are influenced by sexually charged roleplay (for whatever reason), the way that an ethical person handles that situation is to not personally involve yourself in sexually charged roleplay.
Everyone is influenced by different things, and has different aspects to their personality. The ethical person compensates for these things as self-correction. It does not need to be assumed that everyone who types out sex is doing so from a perspective of this influence.
ETA: I should have used the word 'biased' here; when I say influence, I mean influenced to behave badly.
Here's my flat take on it: if someone (staff or player) has feelings about someone else (staff or player) OOCly to such a degree that it is disruptive, that's a problem. It has nothing to do with NPCs; it doesn't matter whether those involved are NPCs or PCs. If it is disruptive on an OOC level, it's a problem.
If it's the "my faction-leader PC will only play with this one person because they are my bestest friend on the game", it's a problem.
If it's "these two players have TS'd and now the first one is trying to control the second one by becoming OOCly furious and accusing the other player of 'cheating' if they're alone with another character on +where", it's a problem.
If it's "because this person is my bestest OOC buddy, I will give them access to IC resources I control that other players don't have", it's a problem.
If it's "I OOCly hate this person with the passion of a thousand burning suns and, by the old gods and the new, I will see every plot they try to launch go down in flames", that's a problem.
If it's "I OOCly think this person is awful because they betrayed me on another game, so I'm going to spread gossip throughout the entire playerbase that they can't be trusted, and turn all the other players against them", that's a problem.
If someone TSes and that doesn't happen, it's not a problem. The fact that some people do get that way when they TS shouldn't mean that you ban TS, any more than the fact that some people do get that way when they encounter an RP style they really like means you should ban all good RPers.
TS is one possible avenue to the problem, sure, and I guess the reason people tend to leap to it is that it's the most scandalous to gossip about. "I hear Joe and NPC Bob dress up in fursuits and engage in BDSM every Wednesday when their RP times line up!" is, presumably, a lot more fun to whisper around and gasp about than "So, I hear NPC Bob really likes Joe's RP style; I guess he's obsessed with the really atmospheric way Joe poses."
So, no, TS isn't the problem. The actual problem is when you have someone with an OOC opinion about someone else that is so strong it is literally disruptive to gameplay in some manner, whether that manner is beneficial to the target of this feeling or not.
a.k.a. Packetdancer (or "Pax" for short)
@Sparks said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
The actual problem is when you have someone with an OOC opinion about someone else that is so strong it is literally disruptive to gameplay in some manner, whether that manner is beneficial to the target of this feeling or not.
And if communicating about that problem does not lead to a satisfying resolution or if there isn't enough established trust to approach the subject and seek one, the healthier decision is probably to move on.
@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
I'm not attempting to make the point that sexually charged RP doesn't or can't lead to bias. It has, it can, it will. My point is that it's misbehavior when it happens, and if it's going to happen, the misbehavior is going to happen in some other way if this isn't possible, because the problem you have is an unethical staffer, NOT that said unethical staffer was typing sex.
Except that as humans sex is again, weird and different for every person. Drama can arrive from crossed wires and not be 'misbehavior'. Not every TS drama is about someone breaking rules and being bad.
As our conversations over today have shown that this is already a heated issue.
When we exist in a community that ALREADY HAS huge issues about Staff vs PC trust, and you add TS (another hot button issue over the years) into the mix between PC's and NPC's it complicates it even more. And more often than not this shit doesn't always come down to a clear 'right and wrong' when it does blow up.
So when Vladmilda the Vampiress decides to seduce the Prince, and then the prince and she spend hours and hours TSING (as opposed tro rolling seduction as per the rules of the game) there are a number of complications that can happen.
@Sparks
Optics are not just about people being shitty or shaming others. Human being are prone to favoring those that they are in intimate close relationships with. A lot of this is simulated in the MUing world, I mean just look at waves arms in the direction of this forum
A Staffer is someone who is behind the curtain, running the game and moving plot and making things just happen. They are again, in a position of responsibility and power. They should not be using (or expected to use) said influence and power to provide porn scenes for people.
I will say again, there is 0 reason a Staffer needs to use an NPC to TS to advance the story of a game.
This does not mean that I am a prude, or have unhealthy views on sex, or think people that TS are bad. I often TS when I play games, I place TSers under no Stigma, but there needs to be some separation and professionalism between staff and players.
The Cognitive dissonance on display is frankly absurd here. We all know people that met significant others and spouses through MUing, We know that the relationships we build on these games can gain us friendships that last years. So the idea that this stuff can also cause distress and misery comes with that.
How many of us have issues with regular forms of rejection? Or have trouble finding the Rp they want, or getting involved in plots. Add to that that Staff are just TSing certain people with Prominent NPC's and then going 'No it's fine! We are ethical about it! That solves that! it's only you terrible jealous people that have a problem.' is more than a little boggling to me.
How'd you get that position? Oh I just fucked the prince! It's valid! They are 'ethical'!
Saying that it isn't Ethical for Staffers who Run the Game to use NPC's for TS (again not sex, TS) is not coming down on sexuality, it's not kink shaming anyone, it's saying that it is BAD STAFF POLICY.
@Wretched do you honestly think staffers are not going to prefer rp with players that are fun for them to rp with, regardless of TS?
@Sparks said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
If someone TSes and that doesn't happen, it's not a problem. The fact that some people do get that way when they TS shouldn't mean that you ban TS, any more than the fact that some people do get that way when they encounter an RP style they really like means you should ban all good RPers.
The topic however isn't TS in general, it's a very specific form of TS in which one party is a presumably important NPC played by a member of staff and the other is a normal PC. It's not useful generalize that to all TS ever in any context.
So, no, TS isn't the problem. The actual problem is when you have someone with an OOC opinion about someone else that is so strong it is literally disruptive to gameplay in some manner, whether that manner is beneficial to the target of this feeling or not.
This is basically a tautology. Problematic behavior is problematic. Sure it is is, noone questions that. However we can do better then that, we don't have to be literally on fire to detect a fire. We can be smart enough to realize that we shouldn't hold a bonfire in the middle of a dry field that hasn't had rain for months and we can in fact figure out that some patterns of behavior are likely to lead to problematic outcomes without actually having to go through the entire process of getting there for the 500th time.
@Kanye-Qwest I don't think that at all, nor was it what i said. But there is a difference between 'This staffer likes to run scenes for the Cavanaugh Family Group because they click well.' and 'This Staffer like to TS with Henry Hung Hunkenstien, for the plot.'
@Kanye-Qwest said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Wretched do you honestly think staffers are not going to prefer rp with players that are fun for them to rp with, regardless of TS?
It's your responsibility as a staff to engage with all players regardless of how fun they are. Players someone would consider "boring" deserve interaction, too.
@bear_necessities said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Kanye-Qwest said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Wretched do you honestly think staffers are not going to prefer rp with players that are fun for them to rp with, regardless of TS?
It's your responsibility as a staff to engage with all players regardless of how fun they are. Players someone would consider "boring" deserve interaction, too.
Eh. Until you start paying the staff an actual wage, their main responsibility is to have fun, usually they derive some part of their enjoyment from running the game well.
@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
Saying that it isn't Ethical for Staffers who Run the Game to use NPC's for TS (again not sex TS) is not coming down on sexuality, it's not kink shaming anyone, it's saying that it is BAD STAFF POLICY.
I don't think it's bad staff policy to refuse to bend to the what-ifs and the past traumas. I disagree that it's bad. It's not bad. The gossips and the rumormongers are the ones in the wrong, even if they are viewed as a fact of life. The people abusing their power are wrong. Just because somebody else did it somewhere does not mean I have to limit my storytelling.
So when Vladmilda the Vampiress decides to seduce the Prince, and then the prince and she spend hours and hours TSING (as opposed tro rolling seduction as per the rules of the game) there are a number of complications that can happen.
I would rather address the complications that could arise than remove an option from my toolkit or the toolkits of my staffers as a storyteller.
@bear_necessities said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
It's your responsibility as a staff to engage with all players regardless of how fun they are
Sure. You def can't ignore players who aren't fun for you (unless the reason they aren't fun is they are rude or disruptive or don't buy in and make you miserable, etc). But it is absolutely not your responsibility to engage with all players equally.
@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Kanye-Qwest I don't think that at all, nor was it what i said. But there is a difference between 'This staffer likes to run scenes for the Cavanaugh Family Group because they click well.' and 'This Staffer like to TS with Henry Hung Hunkenstien, for the plot.'
Well, if the staffer wants to TS with Henry Hung Hunkenstien because that's something they mutually enjoy, that's fine. However I would argue that the staffer, HHH and the game as a whole is better off if they do that TS with a character that isn't plot important. Which touches on the related subject of Staff PCs in positions of power because if someone seems to be rewarded by the 'pc' Prince that just happens to be played by staff it has all the same optics as if it was an NPC.
@Groth Once I made the mistake of giving my phone number out to a staffer.
He called repeatedly on random nights asking me to log on and role play (TS) with his wife. When I tried to get away, they nuked my character.
Gotta get away from this thread, now. I'm hearing this creepy classical music and if I don't put this box down, it's gonna open.
