@Orange said:
I thought they logged pages and chats? All it had to take was to look at those.
Only players log (their own) pages if they want to, as it'd be really creepy and a huge violation of privacy to do it any other way.
Other than being set up (which is a douche move, I agree) what was your specific beef with the situation from an IC point of view? For instance did the Werewolf PCs know where your character was?
@Arkandel The beef is mostly for being lured/baited OOCly. From an IC POV: No, they didn't know, they claimed tracking. A neutral staff member watched it all happen, not gona blame him/her. Didn't take any points in Haven for protection so pretty much slept in some sewer, even though ICly was working on joining this pretty well secured family/house. Not enough time to really establish anything in 2 weeks of existence.
Good to know these chats aren't logged. It's just that with coders I talked to, there is a way to pull it up on God chracter, nobody ever does it except in situations of hacking/etc. I now log everything of course, may even have that log somewhere in my giant heap of files, duno.
Yes, on top of baiting someone into a situation that will get their character killed without warning them about it in the first place, PKing a character right out of CG is one of the lowest things you can do. It works in their favor they had IC motivation but even that's mitigated by the fact this motivation was manufactured OOC. Boo.
@Orange said:
Good to know these chats aren't logged. It's just that with coders I talked to, there is a way to pull it up on God chracter, nobody ever does it except in situations of hacking/etc.
Nope. By default, TinyMUX logs just connectivity changes (logins, logouts, drops) and some administrative @commands. The game has to be set up to log pages, or you have to be specifically flagged for your own commands (and not commands targeting you) to be logged.
Penn may log more completely. I would be surprised, tho, as that's a lot of ado over a lot of nothing, just to catch one possible transgression.
@Misadventure said:
@HelloRaptor said:
there were multiple staffers (myself included) who indicated they were willing to handle the >situation and any future such situations (rape or otherwise) which might come up.
Yup.
There was too much loud shrieking from the staffers who were busy having hysterics for me to pay any attention to the calm ones. It doesn't take many people screaming in your face to deal with it and deal with it NOW to make noticing sanely behaving people very easy.
@HelloRaptor said:
people demanding that staff assess damages for violent rape, and make pregnancy rolls
Because saying, "1 or 2 Lethal, take your pick, and no because whether or not a character gets pregnant has always been the purview of the player of that character. Decide for yourself. Make a roll if you want, but it's not our call." would have been just far too onerous an effort.
There were several staffers who were prone to the most extreme of shrieking histrionic behavior, which generally ended up in long screaming pages to me, Troy or me AND Troy. So she made rules. So it goes.
The first time was 'only' the usual rape clusterfuck with the rapist getting killed and demanding to be immune to punishment.
"This is a non-consent game, so no."
You seem to be a lot less susceptible to people whining and crying and having fits then Troy or I though. It got especially bad when its some friend of Troy's/Staff that is doing it.
How on earth did the conversation not go:
PLAYERS: This character killed his girlfriend, we demand that our characters be allowed to kill him for it.
STAFF: Okay? Have combat rolls started yet? Call for a ST when they do, if you guys need one.
It went like this:
Hunter Player A (Victim) has been PK'D by Hunter Player B (Aggressor) and its a huge mess and he's claiming OOC flipout as justification because of past psychological trauma RL,
Complicating matters: Hunter Player B was either fired the previous day or was in the process of being fired for basic cheatery: reading all the +jobs relating to player A and her interaction with the vampire. It was revealed to me by Troy and Player A that she had been asking vampstaff for permission for Vampire C to embrace her. Apparently (Can only guess based on Hunter Player B statements) B flipped out hardcore OOC at A over that too, and she backed off from doing it.
So. Hunter player A is busy crying OOC to every player who would listed that B was a shithead, unreasonable and PK'd her for no reason. (These things could all be said to be true, I think. But it did not help with the situation.
Here's what the -players- said:
Hunter Player A - Please please please retcon my death. I promise next time I do rape RP I'll make sure it's all properly laid out for everyone involved. Yes, i know I broke that rule before. I'm so sorry, please help me?
Hunter Sphere she talked to OOC - They do not at this time have any IC info on how she died or even that she's dead...BUT. "We want to PK Hunter B to death!!!! We'll all quit if we get blocked!"
Hunter B - What do you mean I'm going to lose my character???? cries No, no, please let's do what sghe said and retcon the whole death scene. I agree to avoid her player OOC and leave her alone, she can just do the same for me.
Vampire C - OMG guys. I can change the rape scene to just be feeding that leaves a bruise!!!! (They are a nice person. They were freaked by all this.)
On TR a scene can be retconned if staff believes it needs to be done and all involved players consent.
Troy noped out of dealing with it all, overstressed.
We ended up retconning the death, warning her that the next time she did this she was for real losing the character
Yes, how dare a player engage in roleplay other players might find fucked up or traumatic. Good thing you instituted a rule about how if you're going to roleplay anything that anyone might find fucked up and/or traumatic to deal with, they get forms signed in triplicate from everyone they interact w-... oh right, my bad, just the one thing.
Look Troy up and complain. She wrote it. I DO think it is highly fucked up to spring Surprise Trauma on unsuspecting RP partners. Have the decency to discuss it with them first. I feel the exact same way about Surprise Pregnancy RP where someone just suddenly became a Baby-daddy without a word to his player.
The point at which I have to order one player to have no contact, at all, ever with another player, is the point at which I'm just removing one of those players from the game. I'd probably flip a coin, given all the givens here.
I wish. I'd have removed Hunter B in 2 seconds even if I had to grab someone to run a mob scene of other hunters offing him to satisfy them. He was OOC nucking futs. Dealing with him was always a bit fraught in the first place.
Unfortunately, even as Ashur, I did not have the authority to kick people off the game permanently. Only Troy could do that, and she was not super likely to do so in almost any circumstance as she does not like to be The Bad Guy. Not is she likely to do it to friends.
We were told not to, and then treated with everything from derision to open antagonism for even indicating we'd be willing to handle it.
Troy had already been run over by the staffers prone to frothing fits. Once she decides how something is going to be handled and who has to do it, that is pretty much that.
Fun times. I cannot remember any logins as Ashur that were not just about that stressful. I mopped up a lot of shit that Troy told me to take care of.
Hunter Player A (Victim) has been PK'D by Hunter Player B (Aggressor) and its a huge mess and he's claiming OOC flipout as justification because of past psychological trauma RL,
Hunter Sphere she talked to OOC - They do not at this time have any IC info on how she died or even that she's dead...BUT. "We want to PK Hunter B to death!!!! We'll all quit if we get blocked!"
...I would just ban all of these motherfuckers, on the face of it here. >_>
Unfortunately, even as Ashur, I did not have the authority to kick people off the game permanently.
Too bad, because yeah, all of them.
Troy had already been run over by the staffers prone to frothing fits. Once she decides how something is going to be handled and who has to do it, that is pretty much that.
Sure, I just feel like when this comes up there's a lot of hand wringing about how nobody on staff was willing to deal with it, and rules had to be made so that staff wouldn't be forced to deal with it, and that's simply not the case. There's stuff I don't like, stuff I'm not comfortable with, but at the end of the day it's all fictional shit that's not actually happening to anyone, and at worst I'm going to find it one of the many moderately unpleasant things I might have to do as staff. Given how moderately unpleasant I felt dealing with maybe half of the other people on staff, because there were some really, really stupid people I was forced to deal with... enh.
I'll take adjucating damage levels on a torn anus over having to work with a good dozen staffers I dealt with there any day of the week. Not you, mind. I think I was mean to you a few times here, but only because you were the mouthpiece for shitty decisions. I always felt like you tried your best to do what you could with what you were given, which is more than I can say for some of those assholes.
You seem to be a lot less susceptible to people whining and crying and having fits then Troy or I though.
I offered a couple of times to be the hardass, but it never flew. Probably because I'd have required the authority to actually follow through with whatever I decided. <_<
@HelloRaptor said:
I'll take adjucating damage levels on a torn anus...
And, just like that, I have become inflamed with a desire to make a WoD game in which HIGH IMPACT SEXUAL VIOLENCE is a central part of the gameplay.
It would be like any other WoD game, except with 50% more rape. Graphic, unsettling, violent rape, with vomiting, screaming, and crying.
And it would be set in Equestria.
@Cirno said:
It would be like any other WoD game, except with 50% more rape. Graphic, unsettling, violent rape, with vomiting, screaming, and crying.
Warform BDSM sex! While the victim freaks out because their WP is too low.
Silver dildos on the weapons list.
That Robin/Rossmore clusterfuck was huge levels of stupid and I agree with Raptor that they should have both just been dropkicked right the fuck out.
I also find it crucial that if people complaining, whining, and screaming at you gets them results, you should not be the person in charge of deciding stuff, because they're going to abuse the shit out of it.
@Coin said:
I also find it crucial that if people complaining, whining, and screaming at you gets them results, you should not be the person in charge of deciding stuff, because they're going to abuse the shit out of it.
Oh, I agree. That's certainly part of why I'm never staffing again. The other part is that it completely sucks the joy out of RP for me. I can't just relax and play because I get worried about stuff I need to do as staff. Another part is certainly seeing things that cannot be unseen.
Like staff's opinion of players.
Or the PC who used Biokinesis 5 to have 2 working penises. You just can't make that shit up.
@Corruption said:
@Coin said:
I also find it crucial that if people complaining, whining, and screaming at you gets them results, you should not be the person in charge of deciding stuff, because they're going to abuse the shit out of it.
Oh, I agree. That's certainly part of why I'm never staffing again. The other part is that it completely sucks the joy out of RP for me. I can't just relax and play because I get worried about stuff I need to do as staff. Another part is certainly seeing things that cannot be unseen.
Like staff's opinion of players.
Snrk. Yeah, well, we're all guilty of expressing our opinions to other people in ways that can be construed as unethical. I've been told in pages things, "just between you and me" that I found really fucking unnerving because said opinion was directly in contrast to the person's actions, and all I could do was stare at the screen and go, "WTF?" I've also slipped and said something horrible about someone on a Staff channel before.
Or the PC who used Biokinesis 5 to have 2 working penises. You just can't make that shit up.
Biokinesis doesn't work that way. It never has. This is stupid. I can make it up, and it would still be stupid.
@Corruption said:
That's certainly part of why I'm never staffing again.
I know you said 'part' but I'll piggyback on it.
It happens to giant corporations with HR-trained experts so of course it happens on MU* as well where we're all amateurs and the pool of potential candidates to fill out positions is so limited, but people are very often promoted to failure instead of playing to their strengths. That we're also fairly bad at recognizing our own limitations is just a cherry on that bitter pie, you know?
So the reason I don't staff these days is that it simply does very little for my ability to help a game out. I'm good at running and discussing plot, so having to administrate things just gives me an overhead of politics and the constant threat of conflicts of interest which is a bitch to handle. Instead I can handle stories for which people tend to be pretty grateful and thank me for it, I enjoy doing it, and I usually have a pretty good working relationship with staff in the games I play so I can still chip in with opinions about the MU's direction. It's a win/win for everyone involved.
@Coin said:
Biokinesis doesn't work that way. It never has. This is stupid. I can make it up, and it would still be stupid.
Oh, I know. When I discovered that, I went and read the rules on it, and went "Uh." I don't remember what poor bastard on the staff had to deal with this guy (who argued that we were wrong and he was right!) but thankfully it was not me. Things that should be kicked to Shang...
@Corruption said:
@Coin said:
Biokinesis doesn't work that way. It never has. This is stupid. I can make it up, and it would still be stupid.
Oh, I know. When I discovered that, I went and read the rules on it, and went "Uh." I don't remember what poor bastard on the staff had to deal with this guy (who argued that we were wrong and he was right!) but thankfully it was not me. Things that should be kicked to Shang...
Yeah, well. "If you can't understand the limitations of your character's powers, then you can't have them." 
I'm such a tyrant.
So to take this back to the actual topic of the thread, sexual themes in RP, I admit to not really understanding how and why some things are allowed, some things are banned, some things are stigmatized more than others, etc. Just to get it out of the way first, so that I can go into other points and hopefully people won't focus on this one specific aspect -- re: rape RP? Eh. I can take it or leave it. It's not personally my bag, but I can see ways in which it can be used to further someone's storyline in a way that they find enjoyable, especially in regards to being pressed into a situation worthy of 'adapt or suffer'. It could make an excellent Awakening to Pandaemonium, if that's what the player wanted, or a fantastic trauma for the First Change to occur. If this is what you wanna get out of RP, then this is what you wanna get out of RP. If you have someone willing to help you with that story, more power to you. But it should probably be at least moderately consent-based if it's just a random physical act with no character development options agreed upon by the character. And that is the extent of my opinion on that particular line of thinking. Ergo, moving on to the things I find more interesting!
NOW, for the more interesting stuff, which I will likely break up into a couple of different posts for reasons of length:
There are plenty of other things that sexual content can be used for in RP, and not all of them are just writing porn on screen. Now, before we go further, let's assume the standard MU line that:
All players agree that they are eighteen years of age or older and understand that Mature themes and content are going to follow from this game:
With that out of the way, let's talk about some of the ways that sexuality could be used in a game.
As a character development tool - Believe it or not, this can be done. This can be done to fantastic effect. I've taught entire arcane philosophies (the philosophy of the Adamantine Arrow lends itself particularly well to this) through the use of sex, tension, and the exchanges of energy, with or without the accompanying magic and drugs. It's completely do-able. Hell, it's more enjoyable, more personal, and more spiritual in that sort of setting, IMO, because it stresses the fact that there are facets to the occult that stray outside of the readily obvious, connections that can be made between Thing A and Thing B in ways that can inspire both pleasure and pain, passion and fear. So, to respond to @Thenomain's thing earlier, you absolutely can do this and still be mindful of the Abyss. You can even use it as a way to teach about the Abyss. And you can do it in ways that don't even remotely border on the Abyss. It all depends on what you want to inspire.
As a means to an end - Sex can be used, in story, in a wide variety of settings. Perhaps your character is not above using sex to blackmail another person with the videotape that you made of it. Perhaps your character likes you pull the honey trap maneuvers and use it to leverage your own goals into place. Perhaps your character really needs some sort of escape, or you have some sort of hedonistic vice that lets you benefit from this while exploring your character's psyche.
Whatever the case, you can surely benefit from this type of RP, and given how geared the WoD has been toward sexual themes, even strange and deviant sexual themes like the girl that basically dry humps her brother while feeding off of him (true story. Vampire 2.0, I'm looking at you), so incorporating any of these into your own RP should not be stigmatized. It's just as valid a part of the game as any other, and seems to even be actively encouraged because of the mood that they can evoke. At the end of the day we're all adults. We are at least old enough to be able to find Pornhub. The fact that someone gets a blowjob on screen, or poses a supernaturally sensual encounter, is not beyond the realm of reason.
Part 2 of this -- how players tend to react to these things. That continues to baffle me. I can understand the take it or leave it sorts. That is a completely understandable thing. If it does not appeal to you, it does not appeal to you. Even reacting badly IC to IC actions is fine. It's some of the OOC that I dont'get.
Player A (male) ICly flirst with Player B (also male).
Player B gets nervous and dodgy IC, giving signs that this is not for him.
Perhaps player B even is cool enough to go 'OOC - No judgments here, man, but that's really not my bag! I can't get interested in it, it has no appeal for me, I'm bad at it, I have a bad history with it. Nothing against you, but it's just not a thing that can happen. We cool?"
Player A OOC - Oh, yeah man! I apologize for that. I didn't mean to squick you. How about we just assume that my player can figure out without weird empathy rolls that this isn't gonna fly and switches gears/
Player B OOC - Excellent, bro! I can live with that OR Demons are really good liars, so it wouldn't show, but we could maybe have this other thing happen to the same effect?
Player A - Dude, that rocks. So easy!
Courtesy, respect, communication. It goes a long way!
Now, I personally am OK with RPing out alternate things, and figuring out the -why- of it later. Magic does exist. It can affect a character in life-altering ways. Maybe Player B was never attracted to men before, but he feels strangely compelled. So it happens, and he wakes up, and he never feels that way about anyone again, even for that one person. But there was one awesome/strange/magical/nightmarish time... how? Why? Why not?
It's a roleplaying game. Exploration of different character concepts is, for me, what makes it fun. For some people, that's not where their fun lies. No shame on either sides, but there could be more civility in the matter.
And Part 3 - The weird diversity of what's considered acceptable content on things like wikis.
I mean, I get it, in part. People want fairly clean standards to make it all pretty. But some people have no guidelines on it at all past 'no kiddie porn or bestiality' which makes figuring out what is and is not kosher mostly a matter of riding the waves of opinion.
Some allow files to be marked as NSFW or put into galleries/pages clearly marked NSFW. I like this option the best. I wish everyone used it.
Some even have rather conservative requirements, almost to the point where they coul dbe hindersome to specific concepts, such as 'exposed buttocks cannot be shown'. I mean, I sort of get it, but that's a pretty widely accepted form of nudity now. You can even see i on the WB. So it seems strange to disallow it outright, rather than make clear guidelines for inclusion/display.
In-game files are often much less help, as it seems devs are super duper not wanting to touch that kind of a news file generally with anything really helpful or middle ground.
So... that's my opening thoughts. Anyone got anything related to those??
Honestly, I'm fine with NSFW stuff on a wiki as long as it is marked so I can click into it or catch up on things without having nudes dropped in abruptly. If you post TS logs, some sort of warning would be appreciated so I don't think hey, this is that plot investig-- oh he's investigating something alright.
But I'm not too fussed. I do feel a bit weird when pictures are put up wholesale with water marks (hi suicide girls pictures), but life is too short to worry about it I suspect.
@Orange said:
I thought they logged pages and chats? All it had to take was to look at those.
Only players log (their own) pages if they want to, as it'd be really creepy and a huge violation of privacy to do it any other way.
Other than being set up (which is a douche move, I agree) what was your specific beef with the situation from an IC point of view? For instance did the Werewolf PCs know where your character was?
