The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc

ZekeTheG33k

@Ghost You promised to keep those pages private!
sobbing frantically

Quinn

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Which parts of being in IC relationships, be they romantic and/or sexual or even otherwise, bind the players as well as the characters?

I think it really just boils down to: are you having fun? Is the other person having fun? And that just comes down to communication. And the only thing I think is really unethical is if someone plays the PLAYER rather than the PC. Like I think it's scenarios like this that have prompted this conversation:

Player A tells Player B their PCs are perfect for each other after much romantic RP and wants to put a ring on it and make it totally exclusive because they're not interested in cheating drama RP. Player B agrees because the RP has been so great and they also would like to avoid drama! But it actually turns out that what Player A meant was that Player B just had to devote their PC to them, while Player A's PC was still out fucking around. When confronted with this, Player A is all 'hey it's just IC lol' and then cheating drama RP happens with an unwilling participant who feels played OOC.

That kind of situation is not fun.

Ganymede

@Ghost

I wasn't that bad.

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

If your PC is going to cheat IC on another character do you feel obligated to let your partner's player know?

Yes, socially. That's more of an OOC thing, though.

Do you think you are responsible for a character whose roleplay is related to yours if your paths are to separate? In other words do you feel guilty someone else's PC might become quote/unquote unplayable because of your IC choices?

Guilty? No. Conscious? Yes. I have retired characters based on the IC choices of others, and I have retired characters because other PCs have had things happen to them that made them unplayable. These things happen.

Very closely related to the above, what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?

Yes, regardless of whether you have the moral high ground. Players who do things that make other players' characters unplayable without their knowledge or consent are assholes who need to be culled.

When it comes to TS what's the correct way to suggest it? Do you let the RP become more explicit until the big words come out or you get told no? Do you page the other player first and explicitly ask if they want to do it? Something else?

I don't believe there is a "correct way." I believe adults need to tell other adults when they are uncomfortable with something. This includes TS. I'm not personally uncomfortable with it, no one has asked me if I was ever uncomfortable with it, and if asked I would probably communicate my thoughts at that time, which may have nothing to do with my personal opinion on TS. For example: not right now, I'm playing from work.

Assuming OOC consent between adult players is there anything in an IC relationship, including TS, that you consider unethical?

The only thing I can think of that is unethical is what would breach that OOC consent.

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I love Ghost, but his desire to keep OOC/IC separate makes him ignore some big ol' red flags.

I think I have probably one of the strongest OOC/IC policies in my life, and yet I have never been hit by a red flag in a way that made me uncomfortable.

I just move along.

mietze

@RDC I mean it does solve the issue of disappointment or expectation on one end, but the problem can be that people either lie about their comfort with things or you occasionally have to deal with others that they have upset either because of miscommunication, mismatched expectations, or lying. I do find that saying outright that you will not be making monogamous promises IC, nor do you wish the other person to, and that you will not (and do not want from them) exclusivity in RP play/time spent will kind of make you a hell of a lot less interesting to the most problematic people.

But I think a lot of folks are not wired that way or don't feel comfortable with more open things, which is fine and not at all wrong, but it can make the decision on whether the RP/story is worth the potential ooc headache a lot harder.

Roz

My experience with romance and TS has, by and large, been fairly free of creepers or manipulators. I think I might project a certain amount of online RBF that might discourage people, as I just don't have any patience or tolerance for certain tactics. I am happy to talk about stuff OOC to an extent, but it takes a while of proven sanity before I'd give out my Discord.

I had the experience a year or two ago of my PC starting to get involved with a character played by someone I didn't know at all. We had some OOC contact via pages, but not extensive by any means: we'd ping each other to ask for RP, occasional minor chatting, etc. We talked little about the actual IC relationship developing between our characters apart from occasional brief reactions to scenes. One of the things I took as a green flag is that the other player never mentioned anyone else his character was seeing (while it was known that they were seeing other people, just as my character was) and, most importantly, never asked or tried to hint in a way to get information about what my character was doing outside of our scenes. We talked more OOC in general as time went on and we just became friendlier, because we got on well, but I think we both still retain a certain care in how we discuss -- or don't discuss -- what our characters are up to. We do share more nowadays, because the characters are practically married and sometimes we just drop minor updates on each other when we don't have the time or whim to RP everything.

I have had the experience of someone making borderline OOC comments or slightly over-the-line questions about my PC and, after some eye-narrowing (and, actually, a surprising hesitation that I was SO SURE would NEVER HAPPEN TO ME because I am MS BOUNDARIES) I was just like "Okay no more of that if you want to RP with me." He responded by pretty much shutting up and never contacting me again -- except when he hit up my PC on a different alt a couple weeks later. (Yeah, don't worry, all reported to staff.) In my view, this was a pretty mild occurrence. I can be slow to pick up on regular OOC chatter with new people, so I think that, for people who are more deliberate in behaving in a crummy way, I'm probably not identified as a good target. I am not FRIENDLY AND WELCOMING ENOUGH.

In any case, I guess there are actual questions here!

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Which parts of being in IC relationships, be they romantic and/or sexual or even otherwise, bind the players as well as the characters? For example...

If your PC is going to cheat IC on another character do you feel obligated to let your partner's player know?

I've actually never quite been in this situation, although I have been close at times. I have a PC who is pretty capable of it, and it did come up in the course of idle chatter that she'd probably be capable of it, and it did end up fairly clear that there weren't OOC issues with that if it didn't happen. So I wasn't purposefully vetting the idea, but I guess I did get the info for if the story did go that way.

Do you think you are responsible for a character whose roleplay is related to yours if your paths are to separate? In other words do you feel guilty someone else's PC might become quote/unquote unplayable because of your IC choices?

It depends! I could certainly feel bad in certain situations. There is definitely a way to RP in which you are just reckless with anyone else's enjoyment and only really focused on your own, and I think that's not great. I can be thoughtless as much as anyone else, and if I really did just kind of totally cause a mess for someone because I wasn't really being thoughtful about my RP and the story, I'd feel bad. There have certainly been instances of this in my time. But that doesn't mean that any time someone says that PC A's choices ruined their character, that Player A actually did something wrong. There are a lot of levels here.

Very closely related to the above, what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?

If the player is communicative about what's going on, it can suck (in terms of losing out on fun RP) but it's fine. If someone is just kind of -- ghosting a person, that's pretty lame, and I'd be annoyed. But that's the sort of situation where there's not much to really do aside from voicing, "Hey, if you want to close up this RP thread please just tell me, ghosting on it doesn't feel great."

When it comes to TS what's the correct way to suggest it? Do you let the RP become more explicit until the big words come out or you get told no? Do you page the other player first and explicitly ask if they want to do it? Something else?

Honestly I tend to just try and read the room. I'll play the dance of both parties kind of nudging up to the line and then -- well, generally it's pretty clear when people are on the same page, IMO. Sometimes one party will do a check-in about HOW EXPLICIT IS OKAY, but not always, or even the majority of the time. Honestly I haven't had any issues with this approach. I try to just mirror how explicit my partner is posing.

(I call this the "Cock Line" where two parties who are down to TS slowly edge up to Saying The Explicit Words. Because I find it funny.)

Assuming OOC consent between adult players is there anything in an IC relationship, including TS, that you consider unethical? No, I'm not going to give examples since I'm keeping this classy! But you can.

I tend to think that players can do what they like behind closed doors if they're in agreement OOC. I don't like people spilling it out to others where they have to deal with it. (Arx eventually banned incest themes altogether, not because of staff objecting to people getting their rocks off with the taboo, but because with some players it would inevitably come out in a way where their head of house would have to deal with it and honestly that's just not a cool thing to make people have to deal with. On the other hand, I'm sure there were and still are people RPing behind closed doors without anything spilling out, and I sure don't care about that, and I don't think staff cares.)

@mietze said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I do find that saying outright that you will not be making monogamous promises IC, nor do you wish the other person to, and that you will not (and do not want from them) exclusivity in RP play/time spent will kind of make you a hell of a lot less interesting to the most problematic people.

Yeah, definitely this. When a player is problematic in the fashion that they want to exert control on others, being told that the other person doesn't care what they do with others is a TURN-OFF for them.

mietze

I also think that it is normal/understandable to FEEL almost anything. It is okay to feel sad/jealous/worried/mad/whatever! It is a think that humans do, and emotions are different for everyone and can be extremely situational!!

The red flags/dealbreakers for me are how those things are expressed. I might very well have a situation where if a connected character leaves I would feel like my PC would become unplayable.

But IMO it would NEVER be appropriate to come at someone and demand that either they play a certain way or it's their fault that I would just never be able to play that PC again. That is way too guilt trippy (we all have irrational insta-dealbreakers, that is def one of mine). Sometimes it is most appropriate to keep some things to yourself. You only get to make the decisions for yourself, and it is in fact possible to end things and even leave a PC without that kind of thing.

Wretched

@Roz The Cock Line is the perfect description. Teh subtle game of finding out the mutually preferred language of the pretendy hump time.

Auspice

@RDC said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

This whole thread is yet another reason why monogamy -astounds- and -confuses- me. I don't do it IC or IRL, and it kind of solves all these problems.

So I've mulled over this for a moment and I think @Arkandel is correct.

I've had my time as poly IRL. I've come to realize it's not for me, personally (but I do have a full understanding of it). However, I have played characters who are poly or who simply are happy having multiple partners (I have one right now, in fact).

Sometimes, it works out well (see: current character). However, I've had some go awry.

Scenario 1: (@Ghost in fact will remember this) We approach other person, say hey, thematically this is cool, we'd like to do this, are you OK with it? Nothing has been RP'd yet, nothing decided. Third party says yeah! I am! So we begin playing it out. Third party.... begins RPing as if she's being slighted, jilted, cheated on. Begins telling Ghost that he's triggering her RL issues from her husband cheating on her. Begins telling people OOCly that I like to 'ruin relationships.' What we were told and what happened? Totally different.

Scenario 2: Told player A 'hey, my character is poly, doesn't commit to one person,' A is cool with it. They start seeing B also, tell B the same thing. Both A and B (who didn't ICly know about each other but didn't NEED to) start trying to vie more and more and more for commitment, monogamy, my time IC and OOC, until I had to break it off with both.

I think Scenario 2 is much more common than 1 at least. 1 was a nightmare. 2, however, is sadly not a solution. When we really really like an RP partner, we can get clingy to them. And this isn't just for romance. I've had people do it to me just over 'friendship' or adventuring or...

Sometimes, monogamy is the easy route even if I'm not always a huge fan (cause commitment is terrifying).

Ganymede

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Sometimes, monogamy is the easy route even if I'm not always a huge fan (cause commitment is terrifying).

Monogamy is what I fall back to because I cannot be bothered to be polite or civil to more than one person in the span of a day.

Also, Caryatid's alts are so cute.

Roz

@mietze Yes, this. As a younger RPer, I would sometimes have issues with bleed, occasionally bad ones. I was surely imperfect in managing this, although in my head I always knew that it was my responsibility to manage. I definitely never made demands, but I know that sometimes I might have let my sadness over a certain development show in a way that I still wouldn't find to be at all cool. But people having feelings about RP things? TOTALLY NORMAL AND FINE. We are engaging in a strange and curious hobby that is full of emotive things. Being emotionally invested in a story is pretty normal. It's about the level of your reactions and, most importantly, how to handle and express them.

Auspice

@Ganymede said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Sometimes, monogamy is the easy route even if I'm not always a huge fan (cause commitment is terrifying).

Monogamy is what I fall back to because I cannot be bothered to be polite or civil to more than one person in the span of a day.

Erin was always civil to Charlie.

Ganymede

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Erin was always civil to Charlie.

This is how Trash Pandas show their love.

raccoon stealing

Please Delete

This post is deleted!

Ghost

I just cant get past how the language and social dynamics of what is supposed to be "writing stories about relationships that are entirely IC" fall in line with people's RL views on dating.

I would expect more language about story/plot continuation and less about how polyamory is approached in RL.

Lotherio

@RDC You implied this was a monogamy problem, which I responded too. I'm not focusing on anything other than on a game, nothing to do with RL, I think its a courtesy to be open with people you RP with for the reasons @Ganymede said as well.

No one is arguing for monogamy that I know of? I am not arguing for this, you do you on game or otherwise, that wasn't my focus. I have my RL reasons that has no relation to online RP, it usually involves building up trust/STDs and/or jealous others with guns, which is a thing where I live, most of that is avoidable on games as far as I know (until I'm directly linked up by a port in my spine).

Caryatid

@Ganymede said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Sometimes, monogamy is the easy route even if I'm not always a huge fan (cause commitment is terrifying).

Monogamy is what I fall back to because I cannot be bothered to be polite or civil to more than one person in the span of a day.

Also, Caryatid's alts are so cute.

99% of my characters are slow and/or reluctant to enter relationships, and are not monogamous-brained (because of my extensive library of horror stories).

100% of my characters are super cute, it's true. Even the deadly ones.

Lotherio

@Ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I would expect more language about story/plot continuation and less about how polyamory is approached in RL.

I think its more that writing is a mutual sport, if we're collaborating on a story and I don't want curve balls, am I in the wrong. I mean with trusted players I know, they can throw any curve ball they want, but as mutual writers making a story together there has to be some trust?

Ghost

@Lotherio said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I would expect more language about story/plot continuation and less about how polyamory is approached in RL.

I think its more that writing is a mutual sport, if we're collaborating on a story and I don't want curve balls, am I in the wrong. I mean with trusted players I know, they can throw any curve ball they want, but as mutual writers making a story together there has to be some trust?

You may be right for some people. I think for others this stuff cuts a little too personal or close to home. That it's all about "good writing partners" is a decent mantra, but when the end result is more akin to posting his text messages to his mother's Facebook and putting up an entry on "Dont Date Him Girl" Dotcom...I'm not so convinced.

Lotherio

@Ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Lotherio said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I would expect more language about story/plot continuation and less about how polyamory is approached in RL.

I think its more that writing is a mutual sport, if we're collaborating on a story and I don't want curve balls, am I in the wrong. I mean with trusted players I know, they can throw any curve ball they want, but as mutual writers making a story together there has to be some trust?

You may be right for some people. I think for others this stuff cuts a little too personal or close to home. That it's all about "good writing partners" is a decent mantra, but when the end result is more akin to posting his text messages to his mother's Facebook and putting up an entry on "Dont Date Him Girl" Dotcom...I'm not so convinced.

That example at least is easy to see creeper and a reason I do not exchange personal info with folks on-line (except that I'm from Omaha, but try to find me out of 800K+ folks in the area). I don't even know where this topic is going with doxing or shaming, I just think its a common courtesy to be like 'hey, this char might be a cheater, that's not gonna cause drama' or whatever. Some people don't like that blind-side, though yes, posting to my mom about my character cheating is like nuclear strike blind sided; rest assured we'll probably have a laugh about it, my mom and I, but its beyond bad form, its creeper-tastic.

Ghost

@Lotherio said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

(except that I'm from Omaha, but try to find me out of 800K+ folks in the area)

You're the one with the big, red "N" your bumper.

I know you. lol (omaha humor)