TS - Danger zone
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@Ghost The first person I TS'd with did the you thing, it was something I 'learned' early in muing, but it wasn't just for TS, basically any time I went into a one on one scene I went to 'you' posing. Then I un learned that after reading about how it creeped people out on WORA, tho no one ever said it to me directly or pointed it out to me to my face. Thinking back it's cringy and embarrassing, but sometimes these things that we take for granted as being 'universally known'.. aren't.
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@Wretched said in TS - Danger zone:
@Ghost The first person I TS'd with did the you thing, it was something I 'learned' early in muing, but it wasn't just for TS, basically any time I went into a one on one scene I went to 'you' posing.
This used to be WAY more common in two-person scenes, sexytimes ones or otherwise. I remember it being the norm when I started in the ancient times of the late 90s but even then it felt like...close to 50/50 in terms of whether people used it or not or liked it or not. It's one of those unspoken and not entirely intuitive 'rules' in the hobby (the big one I generally think of is posing in present-tense).
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It was absolutely accepted and normal practice to switch to second person for all one on one scenes back when I started, as well. It may not have been everywhere, but early 90s WoD default was this way. It changed over the years. I only ever see it as a red flag if I request that it stop and they have a problem with that. Otherwisr, well, that's how they probably learned to play and don't realize some folks don't like it. I think it's projection to say that it's because there is IC/OOC bleed.
ETA: I mean, I think there is a huge dose of projection all over this thread, even if nobody else is going to say it, lol. Some people being unable to handle their shit does not apply universally, suddenly. Sometimes people rolling their eyes and saying the problem is invented...well, it is actually because the problem has been invented. 1 out of 100 does not a common problem make.
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@RDC I totally get this. And in some way, as a GM, "Bob feels a creeping chill down his spine as..." vibes more like a crossing of agency boundaries than "You feel a creeping chill down your spine as... " does when conveying GM info, and it becomes difficult to write around one or the other being an issue.
At a table, we'd just say something like, "Bob, a moment before the monster appears, you feel a chill down your spine. Suzy, you see a shadow flit by above that catches your attention. Jack, you rolled for shit, so you're oblivious. Go!" This feels more natural in group scenes, even if it translates over.
...but this feels like, while we could do it that way on a game, it takes some of the flavor out of things, especially when -- when running something for an individual -- it's often about that flavor and detail. I guess it's possible to just pose for the world/NPCs and page that stuff or OOC comment it? But it feels like it puts a larger burden on the player for providing the bulk of the story writing there.
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That is a good point. As an ST, I still use 'you' in one on one storytelling scenes. Not that I have lately, but when I start my OTT up again...yeah. I DO do that!
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@Ghost said in TS - Danger zone:
I mean, in theory, if I were writing a steamy romance novel I'd probably hand sample chapters to people including my own parents
Um, I wouldn't.
Not because of secret shame or anything but just because I don't need to ask questions about how horny any relatives of mine got.
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...it felt appropriate.
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Oh sorry, I thought we were talking about TS here primarily. When it comes to STed environmental things, I do not think that tends to ping people as boundary crossing. "When you hear the screams echo through the woods, they're accomanpied by a strange feeling that tingles at the spine, like there are a thousand eyes in the woods watching you," as a response to a "I'd like to make an awareness roll please" isn't really problematic (in the same way that saying "I would like to go investigate those noises" isn't really going to freak out most STs even though I suppose the strictest IC/OOC separation would be that you'd always say "<My character's name> is going to investigate those noises, what should I roll for them?"
In a more intimate scene, I do think by and large that many people are going to be made a little more worried when it shifts over to ":grabs your pussy."
I did see a lot more variety in -person posing back in the good old days (I think maybe because that tended to differ in board RP and all the other varieties beyond mu*dom). Because of that it doesn't really bother me to have people using different tenses in the same scene, even, it's not really that hard to figure out, and on my personal annoyance list it's low.
I seldom see people switching perspective posing like that between public and private TS scenes though. And I have noticed increasing intolerance for different -person perspectives as well (granted I also don't see mixed crowds as much either.
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Also, I do think the avoidance behavior can be an issue (not just about TS or posing style, but a lot of things). IME though like...a lot of people in general are like that except (well, maybe even if!) when they are FB keyboard warrioring or whatever.
Many people will /not/ speak up and ask for what they want. I understand this, because if they do they will have to worry about someone bitching about them being a snowflake, or having no IC/OOC boundaries, not being a hard core RPer, whatever. Many people will not check in or ask (or tell others that they enjoy feedback) for feedback or what the other person because they don't want to come across as suspicious or creepy or like they're too dumb to figure it out.
A lot of upset feelings that I have had to referee as a staff member or work out in groups has at its root that someone didn't get something that they needed/wanted, that they thought they'd dropped enough hints, and they are now hurt that they weren't picked up and run with--but they might well have gotten really angry at people for asking outright and putting them on the spot too.
This isn't some horrible awful OMG MUSHERS ARE THE WORST EVARRRRRRRR thing. I can say the same for the various conflicts I got to unravel and deal with when I was in PTA both at the program level and at the district/state level. HR people get to deal with this at workplaces large and small. Or any nonprofit too.
I don't know what it is about people (though also, the demographics of the groups I've personally worked with have SOME diversity as far as ex-pat/race/culture/personality/gender ect but they're all pretty much white American majority, so I would be super interested to know if it's significantly different say in orgs outside of that) but at least almost universally in RL and otherwise many folks find it super hard to ask for what they want out of a situation or proactively state boundaries. It's really fucking awkward sometimes even if you have a lot of practice. So honestly, I try to give a lot of grace, especially online with people I don't know. Everyone has their own thresholds of what's intolerable, though. It's easy for me personally to say "roll with it what's the big deal" about a lot of stuff, as I would imagine that others could say the same about my peeves.
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@mietze said in TS - Danger zone:
almost universally in RL and otherwise many folks find it super hard to ask for what they want out of a situation or proactively state boundaries.
And a lot of times, when (generic) you do state boundaries, people take issue with the very notion of (generic) you having boundaries, which does not make things any easier.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality or even if they arent offended, sometimes people then go on an OMG I'm Stupid kick too. This has not happened to me as much in MUland (I think more people have a very defensive lashing out reaction more, even though feeling bad might be the same root cause!). But I have had to talk down many committee chairs or other people down from the ledge when they exploded into "I am forever unworthy" because they had to follow a new policy or adopt a new structure because of new or previously unaware best practices mandates passed down or similar.
It is draining enough to sit down with a cooperative soul to figure out how to renegotiate practices or boundaries. When you also have to deal with a lot of fragility expressed in either a need to spend the majority of the time comforting that person or warding off their defensive attacks it is absolutely exhausting. So I'm not surprised when people ghost or just decide the risk to opening one's mouth isn't worth it when you can just avoid it ever again on a mush.
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@mietze Yeah, that's definitely a thing. It's a thing in general, really: "I did something wrong, so now I am going to flail and gnash my teeth in such a dramatic and histrionic fashion that instead of you being mad at me, I'm going to make you feel sorry for me and console me." In a lot of cases, it's a negative consequences dodge.
Hate that garbage.
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I was thinking too that as a whole I do think especially in mushland people do try really hard to not bring up an issue unless it really really bothers them and it's been going on for awhile as they've tried to ignore or avoid it. So it is more high stakes almost immediately for the person that is having their comfort zone pushed while the other person may feel blindsided (natural to act in defense!). It is tough because who wants to bring up every little thing immediately when it happens (and people are going to rightly find that pretty annoying too).
I do think that's why it's important to give some grace to folks on a game. Most of the time that's very well spent. And if someone freaks out every time or doesnt listen or goes 0-100 more than once, then you just do what you gotta do. Easier said than done though, I know I sure as hell am far from perfect in that regard, online or RL.
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@Ghost said in TS - Danger zone:
I've wondered sometimes (and never asked, perhaps I should have) if the "you" was because they were knowingly trying to put me, the player, as the target of an action or if they were honestly trying to write scenes from a 2nd person perspective for the reader to absorb.
Three or four paragraphs of "She grabs her boob" get super confusing.
That is all.
That is the entirety of it.
Assuming two people of the same gender. And I don't even want to imagine what it would read like for two or more non-binary they/them partners.
I mean, it's doable, but.
PS: And by that, I mean, I think I'd need both hands, at least, to count the times I've had to interrupt a scene to ask: OOC Wait, whose boob? My charname's boob?
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Posting about Bees and Sneks and like... Pentex-levels of WrongFun and Mummies and SUBMISSION TO THE HIVE and uWu romancu before the thread gets locked!
@SinCerely said in TS - Danger zone:
Everyone else: STILL TAKING RESUMES.
Sample: The dwarf before you should not be naked, nor should her pubic hair be that color. But she is. And it is.
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@Jennkryst said in TS - Danger zone:
Sample: The dwarf before you should not be naked, nor should her pubic hair be that color. But she is. And it is.
If this is someone's description, I approve, but also, a more suspenseful version:
The dwarf behind you should not be naked, nor should her pubic hair be that color. But she is. And it is.
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@Ghost said in TS - Danger zone:
@RDC So if you and I were to (have characters who) TS'ed it would be, in part, you and I having a sexual experience between each other as OOC entities?
I mean, yes? Is a regular scene two players engaging in an activity of roleplay? Okay add sex, now its sexual roleplay. You are still both engaging in the activity as players even if the characters are the ones smashing bits together. You as OOC entities need to come to a consensus on what is allowed to be portrayed and what you are not going to deal with/interact with which has nothing to do with a character. To harken to a thing that everyone buzzwords about the very obvious example is dubious consensual scenes, they are akin to rape and often in real life if consent was not specifically given we tell those.people no honey that was rape. And yet it happens in RL a lot and most folks are not going to conaider it as not breaking their norape policy even if both parties agree OOCly it was consensual
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@Three-Eyed-Crow said in TS - Danger zone:
@Wretched said in TS - Danger zone:
@Ghost The first person I TS'd with did the you thing, it was something I 'learned' early in muing, but it wasn't just for TS, basically any time I went into a one on one scene I went to 'you' posing.
This used to be WAY more common in two-person scenes, sexytimes ones or otherwise. I remember it being the norm when I started in the ancient times of the late 90s but even then it felt like...close to 50/50 in terms of whether people used it or not or liked it or not. It's one of those unspoken and not entirely intuitive 'rules' in the hobby (the big one I generally think of is posing in present-tense).
I personally always got less immersed than more immersed because I'm roleplaying with a character, not me, so when I read 'jacks off your cock' I'm over here like, ain't no one touching me, you're touching Jack Reacher.
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@peasoupling said in TS - Danger zone:
@Ghost said in TS - Danger zone:
I've wondered sometimes (and never asked, perhaps I should have) if the "you" was because they were knowingly trying to put me, the player, as the target of an action or if they were honestly trying to write scenes from a 2nd person perspective for the reader to absorb.
Three or four paragraphs of "She grabs her boob" get super confusing.
My solution is I try to get multiple words to use. 'She grabs the readhead's boob', 'The vampire fondles the werewolf's ears', 'the doctor violates every aspect of the hippocratic oath while 'examining' the eldritch monster', and so on. Grammar is hard, and I tend to just have MASSIVE... run-on sentences, so it gets a little complicated.
As for references for @SinCerely - they're all distracted in the orgy pit, it might take a while for them to inform you that I'm weird as fuck, but... adorkable while doing it.
