Diversity Representation in MU*ing

[surreality]

@GreenFlashlight <calmly wipes down the monitor> Costumer dude in that series is the real hero, no lie.

[Sunny]

@surreality said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@GreenFlashlight <calmly wipes down the monitor> Costumer dude in that series is the real hero, no lie.

I loved that character so much.

[Auspice]

She's mad because they're out of skinny margaritas.

[Ominous]

@Ganymede said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Ominous

“We don’t know what Cincinnatians are trying to be, but Nick Lachey hails from there.”

— Daytonian.

"When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always 20 years behind the times."

Attributed to Mark Twain

[Ganymede]

@Auspice

It closed a few years ago.

I know exactly which one you’re talking about.

[Kanye Qwest]

Are we comparing being southern to being a POC now? Yikes.

[Tinuviel]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Are we comparing being southern to being a POC now? Yikes.

It's quite evident that we're not, no.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@surreality said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

There was a point in time -- not terribly long ago in the historical sense -- when Spanish, Irish, Italians, Greeks, and some others 'weren't white enough'. You'd see despicable stereotypes about these groups spread around widely. You see relics of it today: 'Irish are all violent drunks', 'Italians are all greasy mobbed-up womanizers', etc. despite these people now being ushered under the 'white' umbrella in the US.

This is definitely still a thing in Northern Europe. It doesn't get lobbed under 'racism' since we tend to look at Southern Europeans as white -- but it's certainly a cultural bigotry that still exists. It also inarguably gets stronger the more semitic looking (using the term there for the Mediterranean ethnotype -- Arab, North African, Palestinian, etc). The paler and lighter, the less blatant the stereotyping.

[Tinuviel]

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

the less blatant the stereotyping

I don't know if it's less blatant, but less... offensive? As in the stereotyping has been around for so long that we understand it not to be hurtful a lot more. The Norwegians are rich, the Irish are drunks, the Danes can't speak without sounding like they've got a mouth full of potatoes, the Germans are humourless drones, etc.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I don't know if it's less blatant, but less... offensive? As in the stereotyping has been around for so long that we understand it not to be hurtful a lot more. The Norwegians are rich, the Irish are drunks, the Danes can't speak without sounding like they've got a mouth full of potatoes, the Germans are humourless drones, etc.

Depends a little on what stereotype it is. You tell me I sound like I have a mouth full of potatoes and it's -- just that. Hahah, yes, and the Dutch sound like they're choking on the potatoes. Also, man, don't do English food if you want to live.

Stereotypes such as you can't trust a Finn to not solve an argument with a knife, an Italian will screw your wife and daughter behind your back and a Greek will homosexually assault you, aren't quite so innocent.

[Tinuviel]

@L-B-Heuschkel True, but at the same time we've been saying these things for centuries. And we know, generally, they're not true even if we say them. They're not innocent by any means, but they're very rarely taken seriously by anyone intelligent or important.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@L-B-Heuschkel True, but at the same time we've been saying these things for centuries. And we know, generally, they're not true even if we say them. They're not innocent by any means, but they're very rarely taken seriously by anyone intelligent or important.

Fortunately. Have a few family units to whom they are unfortunately not jokes at all, and let me tell you, travelling in Southern Europe with those people was an experience. No, mum, the Italian waiter is not stealing your bag. Yes, mum, the Maltese airport security guy can in fact tell you to wait behind the line on the floor.

[surreality]

@Tinuviel They still happen in the US and they're pretty gross. They are absolutely offensive.

They are just not lethally dangerous, like the visual stereotyping so often is.

[Ganymede]

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

I don't know if it's less blatant, but less... offensive? As in the stereotyping has been around for so long that we understand it not to be hurtful a lot more. The Norwegians are rich, the Irish are drunks, the Danes can't speak without sounding like they've got a mouth full of potatoes, the Germans are humourless drones, etc.

@surreality said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

They are just not lethally dangerous, like the visual stereotyping so often is.

I get what you both are saying here, but let me say the following: the "non-lethal" stereotyping described can still be deadly.

Think of your average Chinese stereotype. Think of them in childhood. Think of them in adolescence. And think of them, the children of immigrants, as adults. What do you think of? Let me suggest the following stereotypes: quiet; high achieving; good at math; and successful.

Sound about right for the stereotype? I agree.

Now, here's a study regarding suicide among Chinese-born Americans versus their China-born counterparts. Particularly, look at the startling difference in the rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide. The numbers? A rate that is between 2 to 3 times greater.

Why do you suppose that is?

Being a model minority can be deadly. It took one of my cousins from me. So, let's just be aware that "non-lethal" or "good" stereotypes can have deadly ramifications among minorities..

Speaking of which:

Not all Asians are smart, okay?

[surreality]

I'm going to double to expand on that, because it's actually something we see very often in MU.

For instance, I have seen exactly one Italian character since 1996 that was not somehow mafia-affiliated. ONE. It's the same for Russian characters -- except in that case, I haven't even seen the one that isn't somehow involved in organized crime. Not all Roma live in wagons, either. When there are less offensive stereotypes on 'My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding' than are common on MUs? You know that shit's really bad in our hobby.

Yes, people, this is really offensive shit. Yes, it does affect people in real life, and we should think twice before propagating it.

I'm also going to second what Gany's saying here; I've seen it in friends up close, even if it's not within my own family. I do include that in 'lethally dangerous', at least in my head. The friend that was impacted the most was from Taiwan specifically, but the pressure he was under was extreme. Even as clueless high schoolers in the 80s we could see it, and...

...that brings me to another point. I really don't have a ton of empathy for people who 'don't see it'. I need to work on myself on that, but it aggressively frustrates me. Again: clueless high school students in the 80s could see examples of sexist, racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, and other bigoted gross all over the place without any trouble. Less enlightened time, even!

But these things are not fucking subtle.

I genuinely do not understand how people 'don't see them'.

All the things and all their permutations? Yeah, people are not going to be aware of all of them -- . Maybe it's gone underground enough, or people have become so much more socially segregated since then? I mean, I get most people's lunch table probably didn't look like the model UN (if it consisted of class clowns and art/drama folk and cheerful geeks, just of all demographic descriptions), but holy shit.

I mean, I grarred about this in the irks thread, but... still, grrrrrrrrrr. All the people insisting there are no systemic problems and that society is all fair and equal and bigotry-free seem baffled that 'they can't choose a date for something that doesn't fall on the anniversary of an *ist atrocity of some kind, because there are so many of them'. Holy fuck, people. Does that not demonstrate that there is, indeed, a fucking problem?

ETA: Adding cat for Gany.

[Goblin]

We might've diverged from the topic slightly but it's still within the ballpark. Other things that make me super irritated are:

• Posts about 'We that grew up in the 50s, 60s, 70s always played outside, our moms smoked, we sat in cars without seatbelts and we still survived! etc etc' - they are so fucking MORONIC. STUPID. Yeah, cause this is part of the 'things were better in the past'-BULLSHIT. AHHH it enfuriates me to no end. Also it feels like more age-ism. Let's punch the 'weak kids of today'-asshattery.

• Blonde-jokes. Just... don't. Just stop. They're not funny. They were never funny. They're misogynistic and inane.

• I'm sure there's similar examples all over the world, but here's the Swedish one: 'You know you're from the NORTH if you eat icecream in the winter, and the closest neighbor is a twenty minute drive away! etc etc' First of all, you fucking idiots, the 'north' is HUGE. More than half the country. There's as many dialects and various differences here as ANYFUCKINGWHERE. Stop stereotyping. THe worst is the people FROM the north that posts shit like that.

[Roz]

@Goblin said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

• I'm sure there's similar examples all over the world, but here's the Swedish one: 'You know you're from the NORTH if you eat icecream in the winter, and the closest neighbor is a twenty minute drive away! etc etc'

Hey so, I eat ice cream in the winter, I'll eat it in the snow, IDGAF ice cream is delicious.

Where do I apply for my remote Swedish mountain cabin?

[mietze]

@Goblin I always like to counter with YEAH bring back the good old days when you could beat your kids and your wife and it was just "private family business!" Bring back the good old days when people were regularly impaled on steering column and babies flew through windshields! Amen to no helmets, bring on the brain damage, yeah baby yeah! And fuck this EPA shit, bring back the orange rivers and dioxin fairy!!!

[surreality]

@Goblin That's a lot like 'redneck' jokes in the US, at a glance. Which are also gross.

[Goblin]

@surreality Yeah, it's similar for sure.