Diversity Representation in MU*ing

Pacha · Jul 1, 2020, 9:04 AM

That's really awesome! She seems like a really great roster character. I hope somebody will pick her up soon and have a lot of fun playing her!

reversed · Jul 1, 2020, 9:37 AM

@Pacha said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@reversed

That's really awesome! She seems like a really great roster character. I hope somebody will pick her up soon and have a lot of fun playing her!

Me too, it'll be like seeing one of my made-up children graduate made-up high school.

SparklesTheClown · Jul 1, 2020, 1:13 PM

I missed someone making a strawman argument at me fuck.

Anyone I'm drunk 'cause of some girl shattering my entire soul, so here'a picture of Chris Jericho champaign that he isn't legally allowed to call champaign.

Now as far as diversity goes, like, okay so first of well you gotta chill.

Second, don't RP with strawmen and you'll be good to go.

Tinuviel · Jul 1, 2020, 1:13 PM

@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Second, don't RP with strawmen and you'll be good to go

That's good advice for Changelings in general, fetches or otherwise.

HorrorHound · Jul 1, 2020, 1:41 PM

Man, look at you guys having civil conversations. What happened to this place? Did they legalize weed around the world or something?

TheBigD · Jul 1, 2020, 4:44 PM

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

"Okay, dude wants to play X, ban his ass because obviously he's a Y."

Where does this happen?

https://globalnews.ca/news/7120933/family-guy-cleveland-voice-actor-steps-down/

Ask yourself why someone who has voiced a character for 20 years decides to step down, for the reason he stated.

And as I stated upstream, I've witnessed it once already.

TheBigD · Jul 1, 2020, 4:45 PM

@HorrorHound said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Man, look at you guys having civil conversations. What happened to this place? Did they legalize weed around the world or something?

It was legalized in Canada. Welcome aboard, eh?

saosmash · Jul 1, 2020, 5:05 PM

Actors in television and film who step aside because they are white is very, very different from anything being discussed here. Actors in television and film are involved in actual representation, not virtual representation. Everything in MU** is made up. No actual Black people, for example, will be denied a job if someone changes a Black character to a character with a white PB. That doesn't mean that I will feel OK about it happening, but it's still a different scenario.

Everyone else is having this discussion in good faith.

GreenFlashlight · Jul 1, 2020, 8:11 PM

@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

https://globalnews.ca/news/7120933/family-guy-cleveland-voice-actor-steps-down/

Ask yourself why someone who has voiced a character for 20 years decides to step down, for the reason he stated.

I can't agree with the presumption that the reason stated is not the reason. After all, the Cleveland Show was always very careful not to speak for black people through Cleveland's character;* the closest they ever came was an episode making fun of how white he acts. They did this because they recognized the inherent problem of white people putting words into black people's mouths and they figured that as long as they did it nicely they could still have a show about a black man played by a white man.

I'm less hardline on cartoon voice casting than on screen casting because I think it's a different discipline in a different medium with different needs from its performers, but end of the day, Cleveland was a rare opportunity for a black actor to get a paycheck, and that paycheck has spent two decades going to a white dude. That's kinda messed up.

*And I can't recall an episode where any other character meaningfully discussed blackness, either. The closest I can remember is them not liking Federline.

SparklesTheClown · Jul 1, 2020, 8:09 PM

@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@TheBigD said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

"Okay, dude wants to play X, ban his ass because obviously he's a Y."

Where does this happen?

https://globalnews.ca/news/7120933/family-guy-cleveland-voice-actor-steps-down/

Ask yourself why someone who has voiced a character for 20 years decides to step down, for the reason he stated.

And as I stated upstream, I've witnessed it once already.

Well first of all, I've never been okay with Cleveland's voice actor being white. I've never been okay with any POC's voice actor being white for pretty much the entire time I've even known that was a thing that happens, which I'd say is roughly half my life.

Second, as Sao said, it's entirely different. We're MUing, we're not in an industry with limited slots to fill, we're not broadcasting representation of a race to hundreds of millions of people. If someone makes a bunch of questionable jokes as a black character in a game and I know for fucking sure they're white and feel like they're out of line, I can and will say something. Otherwise I don't give a fuck what they do.

If someone is white playing a black character written by largely white people in a huge network television show:

there's a black voice actor not getting work for functionally no reason (so much for "hire the best person for the job, not their race" bullshit I always hear)
if they play a character that functionally serves as a vessel for a bunch of shitty race jokes, there's pretty much no accountability and no one listening when anyone says "hey uh that's shitty", given that it took about twenty years for the guy to go "oh right maybe I should not".
In this case in particular, it's literally like a fucking minstrel show of white people entertaining themselves and making a bunch of dated jokes entirely unchecked by anyone, purely because it's a cartoon.

Tyler Perry is literally fucking black and I'm not okay with the dumbass shit and backward cultural politics he broadcasts and presents to the world with his black oriented media, so why in the hell would I be okay with white people doing it?

Ultimately a simple understanding of context and why people get mad at things to begin with would go a long way. Pointing at things and going "see, this is a bad thing and supports my straw argument" while simultaneously trying to hold onto a particular narrative about certain issues while people are going "yeah so uh you're literally making a straw argument", really won't get anywhere.

To me it's usually a red flag when people apparently have the perspective of "I don't understand why everything is racist now, we better be careful don't know when the SJWs will pop out and cancel us", when ultimately nothing is suddenly racist now, that shit's always been racist, people have been calling the same shit out for decades. The only difference now is that more people other than white people actually have a voice that gets listened to more and more. The shifting of the status quo is purely because people are being listened to, the only perspectives that have actually change are the white people who have gone "hey maybe we should actually listen to those people who keep yelling at us to stop being shitty about things". Otherwise, POC have been saying the same shit forever, people just didn't care to listen to them.

In my honest to god opinion, I feel like most people who are afraid of getting "cancelled" or have these horror stories of unfairly being mistreated because "I didn't even do anything I was just playing a POC character normally", usually did do something, never bothered to actually figure out what they did wrong, so it just fed into the narrative that there's an SJW witch hunt to come after people for "no reason".

You know, if intent and actions actually lined up even 50% of the time the world would be great, but just because you have the intent to not do something shitty doesn't mean that what you did wasn't shitty. And yeah I won't deny that there are people like Cirno who will do and say some dumb shit regarding race in order to manipulate people, but people like that are in such a fucking minority (lol), that almost every time I've heard someone be like "I don't know why they banned me I was doing just fine", someone shows me some fucked up log of what actually happened and I'm like "yeah that seems about right".

Like, so far I keep hearing all of these anecdotes about how the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people playing a POC, but I haven't seen a single receipt, log of the character being played, MU* name, or hell even a goddamned app to let people take a look at anything. It's just people saying shit in the midst of making what sounds a hell of a lot like a bad faith argument. In general I'm not questioning anyone who seems to be making their argument in good faith, but when people come making straw arguments and acting like there's packs of roving nonbinary bandits coming after them if they even remotely step out of line, I'm going to go "okay so where's the receipts".

Like dude, if this argument is even remotely in good faith, please go read Plato's Five Dialogues or something before approaching a topic with your glass so full that it's running over way too much to retain or listen to anything beyond this straw reality of raving SJW lunatics I keep seeing people coming in here worried about. Like dude just take a break from Twitter then, no one here is a teenager who learned social politics from Tumblr memes and cancelling people with BTS fancams.

Okay I admit I did post idol gifs on WORA but no one is allowed to come at me for that.

Edit: also I'm nauseous because I drank an entire bottle of Chris Jericho's fake champaign.

bored · Jul 1, 2020, 10:57 PM

@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Like, so far I keep hearing all of these anecdotes about how the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people playing a POC, but I haven't seen a single receipt, log of the character being played, MU* name, or hell even a goddamned app to let people take a look at anything. It's just people saying shit in the midst of making what sounds a hell of a lot like a bad faith argument. In general I'm not questioning anyone who seems to be making their argument in good faith, but when people come making straw arguments and acting like there's packs of roving nonbinary bandits coming after them if they even remotely step out of line, I'm going to go "okay so where's the receipts".

Let's be clear that several people very much have offered "receipts" of this sort of policing: @Auspice and @surreality discussing an incident on HorrorMU, and another about someone's wife being called a male fake lesbian. I also vaguebooked something that I'm happy to talk about mine but it's a weird, atypical case.

You personally seem pretty keen on policing sexuality (and are far from the only one, this thread had a huge example of that). So while I'm not supporting @TheBigD here, maybe some people do have negative experiences that might push toward 'staying in their lane.'

SparklesTheClown · Jul 1, 2020, 11:14 PM

@bored I could have sworn that:

1 I specifically said I was talking about people making bad faith arguments, none of which are among the people you mentioned.

And

2 Pretty sure I made multiple posts literally saying I was wrong for the sexuality stuff when people called me out on it.

Anything else?

edit: And also I made multiple rather massive posts very much advocating for people to follow whatever they're comfortable with. Which has literally zero to do with what BigD is saying or even the central problem with the extremely obvious strawman arguments he keeps making.

EDIT AGAIN: By which I mean, "I'm not comfortable with this" is a very different argument from "I'm not comfortable with this because the world is on fire and the SJWs are out to get me". One of these I'm like "okay", the other I'm going to challenge.

bored · Jul 2, 2020, 7:16 AM

@HelloProject It's not clear if your'e arguing only with @TheBigD or editorializing on the thread, but

Like, so far I keep hearing all of these anecdotes about how the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people playing a POC, but I haven't seen a single receipt, log of the character being played, MU name, or hell even a goddamned app to let people take a look at anything. It's just people saying shit in the midst of making what sounds a hell of a lot like a bad faith argument. In general I'm not questioning anyone who seems to be making their argument in good faith, but when people come making straw arguments and acting like there's packs of roving nonbinary bandits coming after them if they even remotely step out of line, I'm going to go "okay so where's the receipts".

Bolds mine. All of those look very plural, very general, very whole-thread wide-net, and a weasel clause at the end doesn't really change that. If that's not the intent, OK. But that's not how the post read to me.

Your personal stance/walking anything back/etc isn't the point, the issue is whether or not you think this shit is part of the discourse or not. You brought it into the discourse. So did @Pandora, who was part of that exchange. When people think it's maybe not worth the drama to play POC/outside their sexuality, stuff like this is why (And, since you brought up Cirno, it's really hard to tell 'legit' concern from the weaponized kind. He might be a rare example, but he had a whole lot of this forum fooled, using the same language you are).

SparklesTheClown · Jul 2, 2020, 12:01 AM

@bored I mean if by weasel clause you mean literally what I said. If you refuse to actually read what I said then I can't help you.

And right now the discourse mostly seems to be that you're pissed off and pretty much wholeheartedly ignoring any actual arguments that people are making and just kind of popping off.

Like what am I supposed to do with that?

You're saying all of this in direct response to me pointing out that maybe this other dude should stop making strawman arguments. And Cirno has pretty much always been a psychotic asshole, pretty much every racial argument he's ever made about a game, everyone has immediately pointed out as bullshit if they were on the same game as him.

Like, I really don't get what you want here. What you're saying isn't even making any sense. If I say something and you go "well what you said in this case actually didn't count because ???" or whatever you're doing with that, then i can only presume that anything else I'll say will also be "I'm only going to focus on this very specific part of what you're saying that has already been addressed or is already clear by the literal context of the same post".

You're pretty much taking what I'm saying, putting it in a different context, and pretty much wholeheartedly ignoring the entire discussion happening, and then arguing with that. That and the fact that you're clearly pissed off for what I can only presume is literally no reason, so like, I'm just kind of not going to respond until you chill?

Tinuviel · Jul 2, 2020, 12:08 AM

@HorrorHound said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Man, look at you guys having civil conversations. What happened to this place? Did they legalize weed around the world or something?

You were saying?

SparklesTheClown · Jul 2, 2020, 12:09 AM

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@HorrorHound said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Man, look at you guys having civil conversations. What happened to this place? Did they legalize weed around the world or something?

You were saying?

Fucking jinx of the century.

Ganymede · Jul 2, 2020, 12:13 AM

@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Like, so far I keep hearing all of these anecdotes about how the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people playing a POC, but I haven't seen a single receipt, log of the character being played, MU* name, or hell even a goddamned app to let people take a look at anything. It's just people saying shit in the midst of making what sounds a hell of a lot like a bad faith argument.

I'm not saying that TheBigD was arguing in good faith, but I will say that I have been come at about a "non-representational" representation of a POC before, which was sort of funny because the character was Chinese.

It was many moons ago, but I remember because I just logged out.

Tinuviel · Jul 2, 2020, 12:17 AM

I'm fairly sure that the phrase "the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people" is a big fuckin' clue about who @HelloProject was talking about.

bored · Jul 2, 2020, 12:17 AM

@HelloProject I'm not pissed off, and it's 'weasel clause' because that quote says one thing ("I don't believe any of you and have never seen any evidence, not one piece") and then turns around and ends with "but I'm not questioning you, we cool". It can't actually be both.

Again, if you actually meant "I have not seen anything from this one guy" (although he did raise a supposed case, maybe you want to engage him on the details), OK. It sounds like you're saying that's what you meant? It's not what you wrote.

And Cirno has pretty much always been a psychotic asshole, pretty much every racial argument he's ever made about a game, everyone has immediately pointed out as bullshit if they were on the same game as him.

People were upvoting his 'OMG YOU CANNOT PLAY A PC FROM AFRICA!!! INJUSTICE!!!!' posts back during the Realms thing. I am not going to dig up the threads because search function blows here, but that's what happened, like it or not.

re: civility, I don't actually see what's uncivil here? Did anyone call anyone names? If anything, calling this out is proof that we're all old and lame. Anyway, enjoy your champagne, guy.

Kestrel · Jul 2, 2020, 12:47 AM

@bored said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

re: civility, I don't actually see what's uncivil here? Did anyone call anyone names? If anything, calling this out is proof that we're all old and lame. Anyway, enjoy your champagne, guy.

tbh I think the whitesplaining is pretty uncivil but I'm joining @HelloProject over here in tipsytown and today has just been one of those days where I have reached my upper tolerance limit for white bullshit.