Optional Realities & Project Redshift
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Man, it took all of what, an hour, before @crayon came in here to remind me why I'm staying WAY the fuck away from Optional Realities and affiliated projects.
Dude, sometimes the best PR recourse is to just SHUT THE FUCKING FUCK UP. (In before "we don't care if you don't like us" with "then why the fucking fuck are you here you imbecile!?")
@Jeshin, perhaps, once you've dealt with the (obviously more important) personal issues, it may be time to fit @crayon with a muzzle. You may have come across as a used car salesman to me, but @crayon comes across as a mix between a drill sergeant and the shit I have to scrape off my boots after crossing a cow field.
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@crayon said:
How is OR as a community not entitled to define the criteria of games that the community includes?
You are entitled to define your site as you see fit. You are not entitled to define the hobby without input from all parts of the hobby, even if you disagree with them. You have taken great pains on your site to present it as a gateway to the hobby, as a place for intelligent conversation.
And yet, you refuse reasonable conversation here.
You are handily ignoring pretty much every other post I've made here, where I have answered your question at least twice. This is why I stopped responding to your posts, or even reading your site, and I'll encourage others to do the same.
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If you're really all that confused by my commentary, go back and read @Thenomain's posts. I'm not doing anything but brief commentary because he's being much more articulate and patient (the patient is the really important part, here) than I'm capable of being.
Y'all have made it clear you aren't interested in actually engaging -- you're interested in talking AT, rather than talking WITH, and you're also completely failing at listening, let alone active listening. Believe it or not, people here aren't generally assholes just for the sake of being assholes, so the fact that you're getting a fairly consistent reaction from this community ought to clue you in that the problem here is you. Seriously.
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Hey,
Yes @Thenomain has made several posts regarding phrasing, structure of responses to concerns raised, and general tone of promotional content both here and on our website. However thus far (and I've read this entire thread twice in the last 18 days) he has not asserted that I have lied about our intentions or purpose.
The is a difference between a disagreement which appears (at this time) to be at an impasse and either Crayon or myself or Optional Realities actively lying. It is the specific instance of us lying I am asking for @sunny , everything else I am willing to acknowledge can or does exist but if we have lied (I don't think we have) than I need to identify where the issue exists in our posts or website and properly update it (like I have before).
If we're not lying and you were making a general statement that you feel like we're untrustworthy that is slightly different because that is a subjective and not objective state and I'm not going to say that our posts cannot be seen as untrustworthy based on how someone else reads them.
PS - The issue of our promotional presence being contradictory to our intended goals is the primary reason I have read this thread twice and why I am also asking for a specific instance of lying but I am actually concerned I may have missed something here or on the website. This isn't some kind of hurhur prove it with a quote response. This is honestly asking for directions to the issue.
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@Jeshin: while OT, condolences on your dog.
We lost a long-lived, attitude-laden feline in recent weeks, so much empathy aimed your way on that.Not going to fold in any other commentary with that, though there may be some later.
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I'm Jaunt, from Optional Realities -- DonathinFrye from TMS, TMC, and various other sites in the community. An admin and/or creator from Atonement. And Shadows of Isildur. And Elendor MUSH. Clandestine. Legends of the Jedi. Godwars: Utopia. Countless other projects over the years. I've administrated a huge variety of MU* over the past twenty years, from entirely pk-focused games, to hack and slash, to co-operative writing focused MUSHes, to permadeath/survival horror focused RPIs. I've explored the design of, and playing of a huge variety of games in our text-based rpg genre. I'm a professional stage actor and writer beyond the internet; I have a profound love for compelling narrative, immersive experiences, and killing the hell out of people in online games. And so, for different reasons, I've come to really respect work that I've done and work that I've seen from others across the board in MU*-land.
I've never been a huge fan of the predecessors of this site in the past, so I was very surprised to check in on this thread and notice how refined its hyper-aggressive vitriol has become in its newest incarnation. It's rather hard to respond point-to-point to the nearly 400 posts on this thread, but I'll respond to the point at the top of this reply, and then more generally:
@Thenomain said:
You are entitled to define your site as you see fit. You are not entitled to define the hobby without input from all parts of the hobby, even if you disagree with them. You have taken great pains on your site to present it as a gateway to the hobby, as a place for intelligent conversation.
And yet, you refuse reasonable conversation here.
You are handily ignoring pretty much every other post I've made here, where I have answered your question at least twice. This is why I stopped responding to your posts, or even reading your site, and I'll encourage others to do the same.
@Thenomain - I find your assertion of what passes for reasonable conversation to be pretty limp.
How is Crayon trying to define the hobby? I've literally just read every single one of your points. I don't know you from Adam. You're intelligent, which I appreciate. However, I truly believe that Crayon and Jeshin have wasted effort on trying to argue with you in a logical manner; you're just trolling here.
Optional Realities is upfront about the types of games it's built to support. Some MUSHes fall into the umbrella that we've created for it, and some don't. Period. The reason for the differentiating is simple:
We're not trying to be a community for every single type of MU* out there. We're a community of designers and players from a specific community that's lacked a central place to communicate over the past 20+ years.
MUSHes are all about co-operative writing. They are derived from TinyMUSH, which focused largely on social interactions. Because of their nature, very specific design choices are often used in their creation. Within those boundaries, MUSHes have a huuuuge (and sometimes, fantastic) amount of variation.
RPIs are all about creating an immersive role playing experience. They are derived from Harshlands' RPI Engine (with a few exceptions, most notably Armageddon which uses a similar but unique codebase), and focus largely on a combination of social interactions and dangerous adventure. Instead of character names, you see descriptions. There are no OOC chat channels. Roleplay commands support things like dream journals, thoughts, feelings, and inward focused character development to increase immersion (whereas MUSHes approach roleplay with less of a barrier between players to promote a more co-operative narrative). The threat of (permanent) character death is a design choice meant to encourage players to act more believably as their character and consider the consequences for their actions (whether or not it actually works as intended is not the point here). Automated combat, crafting, and other features are included to allow for the creation of an RPG sandbox that appeals to the gamer in many roleplayers, and acts as moderator for combat (or other conflict-oriented) situations. Within these boundaries, there are huuuuuge (and often, fantastic) variations in the genre.
Like the center of a venn diagram, some games can be claimed by both genres. Many RPI devs have been, historically, too exclusive towards the rest of the community in the past, in our opinion. If you look at the old TMS debate threads mentioned in this article, you'll see some folks list 30+ different requirements to be an "RPI". Back then, I had a simple requirement: an RPI can be defined as derived from the RPI codebase, whether directly or as a spiritual successor.
But, when we created Optional Realities, we didn't want to be as exclusive. So, we've created just a few very light rules for inclusion as a sub-forum (though anyone's allowed to post about their games in our General sub-folder, it's not like we're excluding anyone here from doing so).
Why have those rules at all? Because we took a look at our long-time RPI community and the games that they were playing (a number of which were MUSHes that are more "RPI-like" than others), what those games had in common, and decided to build a community that would allow similar games to share ideas and promote their product to one another.
That dialogue and common ground that we've built would be weakened without our rules-for-entry, because different types of games have to approach solving design issues very differently than the games in the OR community do. For instance, my article on designing immersive automated combat means absolutely nothing to games that lack automated combat.
The separation isn't us judging you because of the type of game you prefer to play. It's practical, and rather loose by the standards that devs in our community have tried to set in the past. To note is that about about half of the games with sub-forums on OR are MUSHes.
This is the advertisement thread. If you're coming here and getting up in arms about advertisements that you can simply ignore, then I question your intentions in regards to us. You can try to mask your attacks behind the idea of trying to create meaningful dialogue, but you and I both know that that's a load of shit.
From the repeat trollers in this thread, after having just read it in its entirety, I've seen no effort to try to understand the purpose of OR.
To be fair, some of the points made by Jeshin, particularly early on, were unclear. I think he was pandering a bit in response to being pushed around, because he's a nice guy and may not have realized this site's long-time history of being a hotbed for vitriol and picking on people with differing opinions. I remember it quite well, which is why I've generally stayed away for many years now.
Don't like what OR's trying to do? Cool. I don't really care, because you're not the person that I want to engage in conversation with.
Trying to hide your antagonism behind a thin layer of "logic and reason" so that you can bait a nice guy like Jeshin into getting knocked around for your personal amusement?
Engage me, instead.
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@Jaunt said:
Don't like what OR's trying to do? Cool. I don't really care, because you're not the person that I want to engage in conversation with.
Ok, bye.
Engage me, instead.
Wait...
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@TNP said:
@Jaunt said:
Don't like what OR's trying to do? Cool. I don't really care, because you're not the person that I want to engage in conversation with.
Ok, bye.
Engage me, instead.
Wait...
+1
Sure, I'll amend. If you don't like OR, then you're not the type of person that I want to engage in conversation with ---> on OR. It'd be rather fruitless for the both of us.
If you're in this thread to bash Jeshin/Crayon/OR for using the site's advertising sub-forum as it's meant to be used, I encourage you to direct your energy towards me instead.
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This site is quite different from its predecessors. Having been around since before day one of the original WORA -- I tossed a guest essay over for the original site before the forums existed in any incarnation -- I may have a better grasp on this reality than a casual observer with admitted bias.
Each permutation of WORA/SWOFA/etc. had its own uniquely irritating flaws, for one. That's not to say this place probably won't evolve them in time, but it's managed to avoid the worst of them, since, generally speaking, people have grown up considerably. Without having been immersed in that over the years, it's likely invisible, and unfortunately, that means the differences -- which are notable to the people participating here and the many people who have joined this community after having avoided the previous incarnations of it -- are similarly difficult to discern.
You can choose to see 'just more of the same thing', but really, this just demonstrates a lack of experience with this particular bolt-hole of a forum-chain that no amount of dev cred is going to compensate for when you're making judgments about this forum community. In other words, you kinda proved you don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to this particular crowd. Maybe some folks will shred you for it since the post has the air of a 'bring it!' in the subtext, intentional or not, but I suspect most won't care enough to bother, and just write you off as being somewhat confused or ignorant of the reality on the ground.
Either way: admitting bias is actually helpful. It suggests an awareness of it, which surprisingly few people actually have.
If this perception is shared across the board, well, that would explain rather a lot.
Part of the problem y'all may have is the number of times 'the horrible reputation' seems to keep coming up, really, but I can't really say for sure. Some folks definitely react more viscerally to the impression that puts off, which can rather easily come across as, "We're coming to offer a hand to you poor savages," rather than actually attempting to interface with the community itself or attempt to learn what it's about. (Hint: it's not about what even you seem to think it's about.) This goes over roughly as well as a group of fervent evangelist ministers showing up at the doorstep of a pagan commune, if you need a more concrete analogy.
Essentially saying you realize you're slumming it to even deign to talk to someone and then wondering why you might come off condescending, though, well -- that's that self-awareness problem cropping up again, I'm afraid, no matter how noble, positive, or wholesome one's intentions may or may not be.
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Let me just say as a player of both rpi MUDs and mushes, both communities are equally dismissive of each other. There really might not be a common ground between the two. From what I've seen in this thread, certain points were brought up and weren't really addressed and hostility, passive or naked emerged.
It makes me wonder, why continue to post or update a thread where you're greeted with such opposition? I don't think being all "come at me bro" is going to be that conducive either. This is a derivative of the Snark/Wora board, but I think the questions and points brought up in the beginning were very genuine and were ignored...which brought on the reaction you have now.
So I'm also wondering, if you don't want to discuss what you're advertising and seeing how well it's going, why do it?
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@surreality said:
Essentially saying you realize you're slumming it to even deign to talk to someone and then wondering why you might come off condescending, though, well -- that's that self-awareness problem cropping up again, I'm afraid, no matter how noble, positive, or wholesome one's intentions may or may not be.
I don't wonder why I might have come off as condescending at all. After reading the entirety of this thread for the first time, I am condescending. While there is some worthwhile meat here and there, a lot of the posts in this thread are thinly-veiled (or loud and proud) trolling. For what it's worth, I don't think that about anything I've read that you've posted here, @surreality.
I'm not here to promote Optional Realities. S'not really my job.
While I'm not really saying, "come at me bro", what I am saying is this: Jeshin and Crayon are going to continue to advertise here (for now, at least), because OR's not a MUD-only community (with about half of our members being MUSHes). I'm here and happy to receive and respond to any arguments, whether they be meaningful, thoughtful and helpful -- or whether they be poorly disguised attempts at trolling.
@ThugHeaven said:
It makes me wonder, why continue to post or update a thread where you're greeted with such opposition?
Because we've seen good players find us from this site, and contribute to the discussions specific to our community in positive ways. Because even though our content might not be pertinent to many MUSHes, it is pertinent to some.
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@Jaunt: I'm not talking specifically about your post, but about the many mentions of the same prior to it. That... poisons the well a bit. Maybe that will help make sense of some of it. I try to read good intentions into things and was raised with someone with a well-meaning evangelist mindset (even if it drove me bonkers at times), so I have a thicker skin on this point than a lot of folks may.
I also think your bias is potentially turning some sincere questions into 'trolling', but not knowing specifically which ones you're discussing, I'm not going to hazard a guess either way. There's definitely been some, but it tends to be pretty obvious -- though how obvious may depend on how familiar someone is with some of the personalities around these parts. Hopefully, that is clear and understandable; I'm pre-coffee as yet, gods help me.
I know I'm in the process of building a game (or three; I have no idea if they would fit the criteria for OR or not, but that doesn't really worry me either way and doesn't offend me in any way -- I'm doing it the way I think it should be done to create the specific environment I want to create, and if that happens, it's all win anyway), and had asked a few questions in the thread about a variety of things, because I was curious if your site would be a good resource for me. I tended to get the runaround more than I got answers that would have helped me make that determination, since the answers seemed to demonstrate a lack of understanding the question more than anything else. I've peeked at some of the articles, but haven't (yet) run into anything that's uniquely relevant to my situation. Granted, I don't expect that everything would be, or even most -- and that's true of any resource.
I do, however, find a lot of useful information and help here -- more than I have on previous iterations of the community forums. I'm a world-building addict, but the technical points of setting up a server, managing things on that end, and working on code, are very much my weakness. Some of the folks who have had the strongest negative reactions in this thread are the very same people who have offered me enormous help on the technical end for projects simply for the asking. To me, personally, that says a lot more about the actual quality of a person than just about anything else, and that is something that's immensely common on this particular incarnation of the forum. It is, really, a refreshing change from previous versions. While the same thing happened, it wasn't as frequent, and the broad encouragement and support here that arises around potential projects is a distinct sea change; 'that's going to suck, don't bother' was the old norm. I'm not afraid to ask 'stupid questions' about the things I need help with here, for instance, and that's not something I would have dared before.
Don't get me wrong; I can be a shrill-ass harpy if I get my panties wadded. (This is no mystery.) I make no claim to nobility here, myself. But, even so, it isn't just noble souls that create, or consume what is created. If it was so, mercy knows I wouldn't get my panties wadded so often in the first place!
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It'd be fairly unfeasible for me to reply to every question or point brought up over the past 21 pages of this thread individually, though I've read every post in the thread twice now. Since I've introduced myself and my perspective, but am just now joining the months-long conversation, I'm happy to start from scratch in addressing points made from here on out.
If you have any specific questions in regards to Optional Realities, you'll get clear answers from me, though. I can promise you that.
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@ThugHeaven said:
Let me just say as a player of both rpi MUDs and mushes, both communities are equally dismissive of each other. There really might not be a common ground between the two. From what I've seen in this thread, certain points were brought up and weren't really addressed and hostility, passive or naked emerged.
It makes me wonder, why continue to post or update a thread where you're greeted with such opposition? I don't think being all "come at me bro" is going to be that conducive either. This is a derivative of the Snark/Wora board, but I think the questions and points brought up in the beginning were very genuine and were ignored...which brought on the reaction you have now.
So I'm also wondering, if you don't want to discuss what you're advertising and seeing how well it's going, why do it?
This sums it up very well, I think.
These interactions have been incredibly frustrating even to read, with the condescension, the assumptions, peoples' points being either dismissed out of hand as trolling when they were genuine questions or just straight up ignored (the assumption when this happens is that you simply have no answer for the question, or that you're cherry picking what to respond to to try and come off better), the defensiveness, and the continued statement that people are interested in engaging while completely refusing to do so (and that would be what the hell you're all lying about). Telling us how it is is not engaging, it's not dialogue, it's nothing but preaching to a bunch of atheists -- annoying as fuck. It's frustrating enough that it actually makes me angry with the now three of you. To say @Thenomain is just trolling...holy shit. If I could reach through the computer and slap you, I would.
Y'all can keep advertising here. We can keep rolling our eyes. Folks around here (@Thenomain and @surreality in particular, but it's not limited to them) have shown FAR more respect for OR than the representatives have shown the community they are coming in to advertise in. If you don't like us and think we're a bunch of asshole trolls, GO AWAY.
ETA: The thing that y'all seem to be missing is that this is a community that is of value to those of us that participate in it. It's not at all just a trolling/flame board, it's not about bitching, it's not about a lot of the things that the various forums have been about over the years. This is a good community with good people that contribute A LOT to one another, so the whole 'reaching out a hand to the savages' thing -- and yes, that's how a lot of this comes across you fucking pricks -- is beyond irritating.
Edited to add again: This is the MSB crowd's living room. To my knowledge, nobody's gone over there to troll / harass, AND YET you guys keep coming over here to do that to this community. You lose all credibility in that action.
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@Sunny said:
@ThugHeaven said:
Let me just say as a player of both rpi MUDs and mushes, both communities are equally dismissive of each other. There really might not be a common ground between the two. From what I've seen in this thread, certain points were brought up and weren't really addressed and hostility, passive or naked emerged.
It makes me wonder, why continue to post or update a thread where you're greeted with such opposition? I don't think being all "come at me bro" is going to be that conducive either. This is a derivative of the Snark/Wora board, but I think the questions and points brought up in the beginning were very genuine and were ignored...which brought on the reaction you have now.
So I'm also wondering, if you don't want to discuss what you're advertising and seeing how well it's going, why do it?
This sums it up very well, I think.
These interactions have been incredibly frustrating even to read, with the condescension, the assumptions, peoples' points being either dismissed out of hand as trolling when they were genuine questions or just straight up ignored (the assumption when this happens is that you simply have no answer for the question, or that you're cherry picking what to respond to to try and come off better), the defensiveness, and the continued statement that people are interested in engaging while completely refusing to do so (and that would be what the hell you're all lying about). Telling us how it is is not engaging, it's not dialogue, it's nothing but preaching to a bunch of atheists -- annoying as fuck. It's frustrating enough that it actually makes me angry with the now three of you. To say @Thenomain is just trolling...holy shit. If I could reach through the computer and slap you, I would.
Y'all can keep advertising here. We can keep rolling our eyes. Folks around here (@Thenomain and @surreality in particular, but it's not limited to them) have shown FAR more respect for OR than the representatives have shown the community they are coming in to advertise in. If you don't like us and think we're a bunch of asshole trolls, GO AWAY.
ETA: The thing that y'all seem to be missing is that this is a community that is of value to those of us that participate in it. It's not at all just a trolling/flame board, it's not about bitching, it's not about a lot of the things that the various forums have been about over the years. This is a good community with good people that contribute A LOT to one another, so the whole 'reaching out a hand to the savages' thing -- and yes, that's how a lot of this comes across you fucking pricks -- is beyond irritating.
Edited to add again: This is the MSB crowd's living room. To my knowledge, nobody's gone over there to troll / harass, AND YET you guys keep coming over here to do that to this community. You lose all credibility in that action.
Well, I don't think they're getting the idea that the way they've presented themselves was wrong and that is a little...odd. Which is one of the bones of contention. It feels a little like someone coming into your house and saying, my house is better here's why..." Then being all "Why u mad, son?"
The way I see it, the break down happened when ideas were put forth that rpi's are somehow vastly different than mushes because of permadeath, no ooc channel, auto combat, mushes being some sort of free form game where things that happen are all purely consensual. In other words, many mushes DO fit the criteria put forth. I think that's what Thenomain was trying to get across in the beginning.
I think what has to happen for this to move forward in a productive manner is to start looking at the commonalities both games have, which are many. Leave the air of "mushes aren't hardcore" or "mudders aren't serious rp'ers" behind.
But again, I really don't think it's possible for people to do that so....here we are.
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@Jaunt said:
@Thenomain - I find your assertion of what passes for reasonable conversation to be pretty limp.
Your assumptions, insults, and then wavering on engaging-not-really-engaging to be wishy-washy, and your general thrust of your conversation is far too appropriate for these boards. You didn't decide to rise above it; you've jumped in with both feet. For that alone, I don't see why I should engage you at the very level you hold in disdain.
I also don't believe that you have read what I've repeatedly been saying. I have answered the questions you're asking of me on more than one occasion; please give me a compelling reason to answer them again.
I'm not one to write anyone off after two posts, but if you really want to talk with me on a more reasonable level, make the effort please. @Jeshin did. My chat box is always open.
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@Jaunt said:
Don't like what OR's trying to do? Cool. I don't really care, because you're not the person that I want to engage in conversation with.
Then go the fuck away. Not a single one of your group of asshats has been trying to engage in a conversation since this whole clusterfuck of a thread started. The best of the breed, @Jeshin, has been a used car salesman. Now we have two more people who don't want to engage in conversation coming here to tell us in loud voices how much they don't want conversation.
Don't want conversation, don't come here. The thread dies down without any kind of talk whatsoever when you bunch of shitheads leave it lie. It only comes back up when you idiots come here to tell us how much you don't want conversation with us.
Fuck. Off.
Go. Away.
Go with God ... just FUCKING GO.
I'm not sure how to word this more clearly. Get lost. 滚开. Berambus. Biến đi. चले जाओ।. Хол яв.
Or, alternatively, and here's a thought, don't come to a discussion board explicitly saying you don't want discussion. 'Cause that's the part that grates the most with your PR. If you're not willing to engage in conversation here, a conversation-oriented board, then you're in the wrong fucking place. Participate in the fucking discussion about your board or get the fuck out.
Engage me, instead.
We've been trying to get you fuckers to engage from the first page of this thread. We've been explicitly told by two of you fuckers that they didn't want to engage in conversation. They only wanted to engage in broadcasting. Now, 415 messages deep, you want to "engage" all of a sudden? Why do I get this feeling that your "engagement" is just going to be broadcasting, this time of bile instead of used car sales?
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@Sunny said:
Telling us how it is is not engaging, it's not dialogue, it's nothing but preaching to a bunch of atheists -- annoying as fuck. It's frustrating enough that it actually makes me angry with the now three of you. To say @Thenomain is just trolling...holy shit. If I could reach through the computer and slap you, I would.
Y'all can keep advertising here. We can keep rolling our eyes. Folks around here (@Thenomain and @surreality in particular, but it's not limited to them) have shown FAR more respect for OR than the representatives have shown the community they are coming in to advertise in. If you don't like us and think we're a bunch of asshole trolls, GO AWAY.
ETA: The thing that y'all seem to be missing is that this is a community that is of value to those of us that participate in it. It's not at all just a trolling/flame board, it's not about bitching, it's not about a lot of the things that the various forums have been about over the years. This is a good community with good people that contribute A LOT to one another, so the whole 'reaching out a hand to the savages' thing -- and yes, that's how a lot of this comes across you fucking pricks -- is beyond irritating.
Edited to add again: This is the MSB crowd's living room. To my knowledge, nobody's gone over there to troll / harass, AND YET you guys keep coming over here to do that to this community. You lose all credibility in that action.
I think there's some very ironic miscommunication going on here.
Did we say that we are "preaching to a bunch of atheists?" Did we say that we "are reaching out a hand to savages?" No. Folks here, like you, did. You put words into our mouths that are completely out of context with our purpose. We don't think that, nor have we said that. It's called trolling. You're trolling right now. Stop that. It makes you look bad.
Did Crayon or Jeshin act aggressively, or trollishly, here? No. You did. All they did was advertise and do their best to try to understand your points and respond to the best of their ability. As someone reading this thread for the first time, it's obvious to me that the breakdown in communication went both ways.
Try ... very hard ... to understand this. OR's not a "MUD" community. This isn't a MUD vs MUSH issue. Half of our community is made up of MUSHes. Jeshin and Crayon, their home game is a MUSH. Let that sink in for you.
I'm not attacking the value of this site to you folks. It's obviously valuable, because you have an active community here when many other communities are not active. There's some good discussion happening on this site. However, I don't think that "your best" has been afforded to this thread, universally. It's pretty clear that both parties have misconstrued each other's meanings or intentions, and that this site has been vastly more aggressive compared to OR's previous representation in this thread -- that is, until I joined the discussion, because I'm not going to be speaking through any sort of PR filter.
As I stated before, if you feel unclear about certain questions that have been asked or problems that have been posed, post them for me. I'll give you a very, very clear answer. Nobody from OR's here to troll. We're here to provide information.
If you want to roll your eyes at OR, go for it. If you want to engage in direct discussion, I'll be around. If that discussion is meaningful and friendly and useful, then my response will be too. If not, well, I'm not really a turn-the-other-cheek sort of guy.
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"If you aren't reasonable, I won't be. It's up to you how I respond."
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
(Will edit post if a more appropriate fallacy is identified. Ad hominem, maybe?)
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@Thenomain said:
"It's up to you, not me, to be reasonable."
If you have specific issues that you would like a specific response to in regards to OR, direct them to me and you will receive what you're looking for. If you don't care anymore, then don't care anymore.
