Optional Realities & Project Redshift

[WTFE]

Seriously. Now the OR fucktards think good cop/bad cop is going to fly. On a WORA-descended board.

Time to get my stuff together to watch this.

[Thenomain]

@Jaunt said:

@Thenomain said:

"It's up to you, not me, to be reasonable."

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

If you have specific issues that you would like a specific response to in regards to OR, direct them to me and you will receive what you're looking for. If you don't care anymore, then don't care anymore.

I have two immediate issues with your method of response:

1. Giving permission to someone when no permission is needed. ("Feel free to xxxx", etc.) I've always considered this rude, since I am going to respond how I am going to respond, and you're going to respond how you're going to respond.
2. Assumption about what I'm looking for. Be considerate. Ask. I told you outright what I was looking for, so if you are unwilling to engage, then please stop trying. It's not difficult to do either. You'll be surprised if you try.

You may not be trolling, but you are acting (to over-simplify what's going on) abusive, which is why I don't trust you.

[Jaunt]

@WTFE said:

Fuck. Off.

Go. Away.

Go with God ... just FUCKING GO.

Mmm. No. This is the Advertisement Board. We're not here taking pot-shots at other games. We don't think that "our way is the only good way", because "our way" means very little beyond three basic requirements that only matter on our own site. We're here to say, "Hey, look, for the folks that this matters to -- here's what's going on over at OR." Because it does matter to some folks here, even if none of them are you. We have some great users from this site. They probably don't post here because of how vitriolic you are.

If you are incapable of identifying your behavior as inappropriately aggressive and bullish, then I have to wonder about you.

@WTFE said:

We've been trying to get you fuckers to engage from the first page of this thread. We've been explicitly told by two of you fuckers that they didn't want to engage in conversation.

I'm not certain where you're pulling that information from. If you want to engage in a civil conversation, as I've said, I'll give you clear and civil answers. If you want to be an asshat, well, you can do that too.

Why do I get this feeling that your "engagement" is just going to be broadcasting, this time of bile instead of used car sales?

I don't know. The two individuals ( @ThugHeaven and @surreality ) that have actually tried to engage me civilly with actual conversation instead of ad hominem, I've answered very directly and with no aggression. Perhaps the reason you "get the feeling" that I'm going to answer you with bile is because you've been spitting it all over your keyboard.

[Jaunt]

@Thenomain said:

I have two immediate issues with your method of response:

Giving permission to someone when no permission is needed. ("Feel free to xxxx", etc.) I've always considered this rude, since I am going to respond how I am going to respond, and you're going to respond how you're going to respond.
Assumption about what I'm looking for. Be considerate. Ask. I told you outright what I was looking for, so if you are unwilling to engage, then please stop trying. It's not difficult to do either. You'll be surprised if you try.
You may not be trolling, but you are acting (to over-simplify what's going on) abusive, which is why I don't trust you.

I'll direct three questions to you, then.

1. Do you feel as though this community has acted abusively towards OR, Jeshin and Crayon? If so, do you feel as though you had a personal hand in that, whether purposefully or unpurposefully?

2. Do you feel that Jeshin and Crayon have failed to answer your questions to your liking due to some sort of illicit intentions, or do you feel like it's possible that there has been a breakdown in communicating clearly across the aisles?

3. Do you care enough about furthering the conversation to get the information or answers that you seek to post them specifically and clearly, and directly to me?

I'm not going to start cherry-picking responses to things over the last twenty pages, but as I've stated multiple times, I'm happy to answer anything posted from here on out.

[Sunny]

@Jaunt said:

Did we say that we are "preaching to a bunch of atheists?" Did we say that we "are reaching out a hand to savages?" No. Folks here, like you, did.

I can't tell if you're stupid or just a prick. Obviously you didn't say that. That. Is. How. You. Are. Acting.

You put words into our mouths that are completely out of context with our purpose. We don't think that, nor have we said that.

Then stop acting like it.

It's called trolling. You're trolling right now. Stop that. It makes you look bad.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. I'm not trolling you, I'm trying desperately to get you to stop being an asshole because part of me genuinely believes that you're not trying to be. Optimistic, I know.

Did Crayon or Jeshin act aggressively, or trollishly, here?

Yes.

All they did was advertise and do their best to try to understand your points and respond to the best of their ability.

Bullshit. This is straight up undiluted bullshit.

Try ... very hard ... to understand this. OR's not a "MUD" community. This isn't a MUD vs MUSH issue.

And at what point did I say that it was? This is what I'm talking about when I say y'all are cherry picking shit. This has nothing to do, at all, with mud vs mush. This has everything to do with the MSB community and the OR community, and the people (like you) coming in here and pissing on the floor and then wondering why the hell we're getting pissed off.

Half of our community is made up of MUSHes. Jeshin and Crayon, their home game is a MUSH. Let that sink in for you.

And? Uh. I don't care. I doubt anyone else here cares. OH GOD YOU USE A DIFFERENT CODE BASE WE CANNOT COMMUNICATE. No. I'll repeat myself. This is about representatives from your community coming into our community and being disrespectful assholes. Just like you're being now, teehee.

I'm not attacking the value of this site to you folks.

No, you're just attacking the site itself and the people that use it.

It's obviously valuable, because you have an active community here when many other communities are not active. There's some good discussion happening on this site.

Oh gee, thanks. It's nice to get some validation from someone who is clearly superior to us. Do you even realize what an ass this makes you sound like? We don't need permission from you to find value in things.

However, I don't think that "your best" has been afforded to this thread, universally.

Okay? So? Was it supposed to be?

It's pretty clear that both parties have misconstrued each other's meanings or intentions, and that this site has been vastly more aggressive compared to OR's previous representation in this thread -- that is, until I joined the discussion, because I'm not going to be speaking through any sort of PR filter.

Look. If you come into my house that has red curtains and start talking about how shitty red curtains are, no. You have not said 'you have no taste', but you might as well have. It doesn't matter what the intention was. Let me repeat that. It does not matter what the intention was. You didn't bother to look around at what color the curtains were before you started insulting them. That 'you' refers to all three of you, by the by.

As I stated before, if you feel unclear about certain questions that have been asked or problems that have been posed, post them for me.

So it's our job to prompt you to get you to show us that your community is valuable and you're not a bunch of condescending pricks with absolutely nothing to offer this community? Yeah, no. I don't think you understand how this shit works.

I'll give you a very, very clear answer. Nobody from OR's here to troll. We're here to provide information.

Then quit being a dick.

If you want to roll your eyes at OR, go for it.

Oh gee, thanks. I appreciate it! What would I have done if you told me not to?

If you want to engage in direct discussion, I'll be around.

I wish you wouldn't be. And for the record, that's just me speaking. I'm not some sort of community mouthpiece or anything. I, personally, genuinely wish the three of you would just go away. Go back to your own community and leave us alone. Clearly you're incapable of being civil.

If that discussion is meaningful and friendly and useful, then my response will be too. If not, well, I'm not really a turn-the-other-cheek sort of guy.

But we're supposed to be? Asshole. You might not be "trolling", but you're certainly being an abusive prat.

[Thenomain]

1. Do you feel as though this community has acted abusively towards OR, Jeshin and Crayon? If so, do you feel as though you had a personal hand in that, whether purposefully or unpurposefully?

Oh yes. Absolutely. However, every individual in this thread is their own person. I don't distrust OR because of your behavior; the idea of a community being a thing whole cloth falls apart at a certain level. We used to call it the "Wora Hive-Mind Fallacy," because many people quite happily said how evil Wora was because Wora is evil. Nevermind that a lot of the changes you see in the Mush community came from discussions had on Wora. Cherry-picking has its uses, when done by a craftsman. You end up with a better wine, for one.

I also talked to @Jeshin one on one as a reasonable human being, and I respect him. In your lack of reading back pages, you have undoubtedly missed where he said he was okay with this level of conversation on OR.

Yes, your boss said this kind of conversation was okay. Frustrating, infuriating, stress-inducing, but not bad. I can respect that, and have defended him many times in this thread as well.

So your own over-simplified, leading question can get Socratic with itself.

2. Do you feel that Jeshin and Crayon have failed to answer your questions to your liking due to some sort of illicit intentions, or do you feel like it's possible that there has been a breakdown in communicating clearly across the aisles?

Yes. Many, many times, yes. Most of them, yes. Do I feel that it's because of a lack of understanding? Absolutely, and I have said as such, and found different ways to say as such. You, yourself, are introducing ideas not mentioned earlier in this thread meaning that of three OR representatives, no two of them have given the same viewpoint of what OR is about.

And respectfully, no, I'm not going to show you examples of this. There is a limit of how much time I'm going to spend on your project. I have stuff of my own I need to get done.

3. Do you care enough about furthering the conversation to get the information or answers that you seek to post them specifically and clearly, and directly to me?

If you don't understand the answer to this by now, then you're not paying much attention. You want things to be in a way that you want them, which is a big reason why I don't trust you. You could have said: I don't get it, Theno, when you say xxx because I see yyy. Did I mention what I think of the Socratic method? I'm not twelve, and I'll ask you not treat me as such; please read what's in front of you.

To you, though? I've also made a very simple, straight-forward statement twice now. I don't understand why you're not understanding the words: You First.

Be engaging, and you will be engaged. Be honest, and you will be respected.

[Jaunt]

@Sunny -- read the entirety of your post, and then the below section a second time.

@Sunny said:

Clearly you're incapable of being civil.

If that discussion is meaningful and friendly and useful, then my response will be too. If not, well, I'm not really a turn-the-other-cheek sort of guy.
But we're supposed to be? Asshole. You might not be "trolling", but you're certainly being an abusive prat.

Do you understand the irony of everything that you've posted? C'mon.

Please, show me where Crayon and Jeshin insulted "the way you do things". Use the little quote button. I've read the entire thread twice and don't see it. If you actually support your forum vomit with something substantial (like a direct reference to whatever the fuck it is that you're talking about), then you'll have grown beyond blatant trolling and ad hominem.

[WTFE]

@Jaunt said:

If you are incapable of identifying your behavior as inappropriately aggressive and bullish, then I have to wonder about you.

My first foray into this thread, 343 messages deep in the cow shit @Jeshin and @crayon had been piling up, was right here.

In that, I point out to @Jeshin that his approach is not working (and I quoted him directly in it, I note). What was his response? Aside from his irritating "Hey," opener, the first three words are "That is incorrect". Yes. Apparently me quoting him saying he's not interested in engaging in conversation on a conversation-oriented board and saying this is a bad idea is "incorrect".

At that point it became clear(er) that he is not here to do anything more than shill. And that his press release-spewing lackey (@crayon) was also not here to do anything more than shill. Salesmen and PR shills bore me. I decided to make it entertaining.

And even with that, the actual, full-blown, hostility didn't even begin to show itself until message 366 in this clusterfuck. And even there it was mild. So it took 43 continued messages of @Jeshin and @crayon missing the point completely and continuing with their "pronouncements from on high" (with both of them stating in clear terms that they did not want to engage in conversation here multiple times!) before actual hostility started to show.

Then, finally, in message 401, a full 57 messages after I pointed out how off-putting your pair of asshats was being came the real hostility.

From my perspective? This particular bull spent an awful long time (20 days) of being tolerant of your pairs' fucktardedness before exploding.

And now you want to go all good cop/bad cop. It's so adorable.

We've been trying to get you fuckers to engage from the first page of this thread. We've been explicitly told by two of you fuckers that they didn't want to engage in conversation.

I'm not certain where you're pulling that information from.

I spotted it first here where @Jeshin said:

Truthfully I think the primary gap to bridge is that we're much more likely to discuss topics freely and with less "this is how it is" style writing on Optional Realities itself. Discussions are content and that content we take time to create we try to keep on the website.

So how 'bout right fucking there, from the Used Car Salesman in Chief of OR itself? Then repeated at least twice by him after that, not to mention the number of times Yappy The PR Shill barked it out like a little shih-tzu as well as he bounced up and down, panting, waiting for whatever treat @Jeshin feeds him for being such a good little lapdog.

If you want to engage in a civil conversation, as I've said, I'll give you clear and civil answers. If you want to be an asshat, well, you can do that too.

Yeah, you clearly demonstrated the latter capability in your very first message here.

Why do I get this feeling that your "engagement" is just going to be broadcasting, this time of bile instead of used car sales?

I don't know. The two individuals ( @ThugHeaven and @surreality ) that have actually tried to engage me civilly with actual conversation instead of ad hominem, I've answered very directly and with no aggression. Perhaps the reason you "get the feeling" that I'm going to answer you with bile is because you've been spitting it all over your keyboard.

And perhaps you need to learn to fucking read and count. Or, and this is just a thought, you need to, and I quote:

Get lost. 滚开. Berambus. Biến đi. चले जाओ।. Хол яв.

To which I will add: Hau ab. Vas t'en. Уходи. All this in the undoubtedly vain hope that you find some words you understand.

[Sunny]

@Jaunt said:

Do you understand the irony of everything that you've posted? C'mon.

I missed the part where I said I cared about being civil. I don't. I finally bothered to speak up when I got sick and tired of the bullshit the representatives of the OR community were spewing. There are plenty of other people here that are willing to engage you because possibly they're saints, I'm not really sure, but I'm not that patient.

Please, show me where Crayon and Jeshin insulted "the way you do things". Use the little quote button. I've read the entire thread twice and don't see it. If you actually support your forum vomit with something substantial (like a direct reference to whatever the fuck it is that you're talking about), then you'll have grown beyond blatant trolling and ad hominem.

Red curtains.

Edited to add: Re: ad hominem. My issue is with your character, I'm not really interested in your position. Soooooooo.

[Jaunt]

@Thenomain said:

So your own over-simplified, leading question can get Socratic with itself.

As I think that I stated previously, I do have some small level of respect for your tasteful approach to ad hominem. I suspect that my level of distrust for you is probably similar to the one that you suggest that you have for me. It's because I recognize the tactics that you've used throughout this thread.

If you truly believed that the problem lay in miscommunication of ideas, then you wouldn't write offensive remarks on the thread in regards to Jeshin and Crayon and OR ... not unless your purpose was to offend, or inspire others to offend.

@Thenomain said:

Yes, your boss said this kind of conversation was okay.

I'm not here in any sort of official capacity. Jeshin probably thinks my approach to this issue is too heavy-handed, because he's a nice guy, but I really couldn't say. He doesn't censor me, and our opinions and tactics differ.

@Thenomain said:

To you, though? I've also made a very simple, straight-forward statement twice now. I don't understand why you're not understanding the words: You First.

Be engaging, and you will be engaged. Be honest, and you will be respected.

"I'm more stubborn, you go first."

"No, I'm more stubborn, you go first!"

Well, I'll bite, but only just so.

@Thenomain said:

You, yourself, are introducing ideas not mentioned earlier in this thread meaning that of three OR representatives, no two of them have given the same viewpoint of what OR is about.

You almost brought up a point labored many times earlier in the thread that I am happy to respond to, at least in part.

You're right. The mission statement's unclear. OR's still in the process of defining itself. There is a constant internal discussion amongst its staff about where we are succeeding, where we are failing, and how we should move forward.

It's only a few months old, after all.

[WTFE]

@Jaunt said:

There is a constant internal discussion amongst its staff about where we are succeeding, where we are failing, and how we should move forward.

You're succeeding at turning off your very target market. You're failing at PR. You should move forward by learning small things like "telling a discussion board you're not interested in discussion is a Bad Idea".

[Thenomain]

@Jaunt said:

I'm not here in any sort of official capacity.

If you are OR staff, then you are here in official capacity. This is a concept that Mu* owners do not seem to understand, and yet it's never been not true. If you are talking about the thing you are in charge of, then you are being official. It works this way in the real world as well.

If you are not OR staff, then that's a different matter. I was under the impression that discussion with you was important to the formation of OR's policies and direction. This correction would make discussion much easier.

If you truly believed that the problem lay in miscommunication of ideas, then you wouldn't write offensive remarks on the thread in regards to Jeshin and Crayon and OR ... not unless your purpose was to offend, or inspire others to offend.

This is ... I don't know how you come to this conclusion, but it's presumptive. Quit it.

It's because I recognize the tactics that you've used throughout this thread.

Doubt it.

@Thenomain said:

You, yourself, are introducing ideas not mentioned earlier in this thread meaning that of three OR representatives, no two of them have given the same viewpoint of what OR is about.

You almost brought up a point labored many times earlier in the thread that I am happy to respond to, at least in part.

This is cherry-picking, by the way.

Please note from my earlier comment that I'm not against cherry-picking, just bad cherry-picking.

"I'm more stubborn, you go first."

"No, I'm more stubborn, you go first!"

As long as the record shows that I was the first one in this statement.

[Jaunt]

@WTFE said:

You're succeeding at turning off your very target market. You're failing at PR. You should move forward by learning small things like "telling a discussion board you're not interested in discussion is a Bad Idea.

Please, quote me where they said that they weren't interested in discussion.

I'm not so certain that you are the greatest spokesperson for "good PR", but then again, I'm not here for PR. If I were, I wouldn't be able to write so candidly.

@WTFE said:

I have thus far refused to go to your site—to even crack it open and look at it—specifically because of the behaviour of the people from your site over here. By being so dogmatic, rigid, and inflexible, and by sticking to a definition of game that specifically excludes the styles played by most people on this board, you are actually being off-putting.

Awesome. I was hoping you'd quote this from pages back.

Our community is a specific genre of MUD that is over 20 years old. If the style of MUSH played by "most" people on this board is not represented on OR, then those people don't really need to worry about OR. It's that simple.

OR exists for the games for which it is relevant. It not being relevant to your games does not equate to us shitting our your birthday cake.

However, as we've received numerous great users from this site at OR, I would venture to say that your perception is critically flawed.

[Sunny]

@Jaunt said:

Please, quote me where they said that they weren't interested in discussion.

He. Did.

[Jaunt]

@Jeshin said:

Truthfully I think the primary gap to bridge is that we're much more likely to discuss topics freely and with less "this is how it is" style writing on Optional Realities itself. Discussions are content and that content we take time to create we try to keep on the website.

Oh, this? Another example of misunderstanding intention and ideas. If he weren't willing to discuss things, he wouldn't have discussed things for 20 pages. What he was suggesting is that any changes to OR's purpose would be better discussed on OR, which is absolutely true.

This is an Advertisement Thread. It's not a "re-brand and design Optional Realities" thread. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

[Thenomain]

@Jaunt said:

Our community is a specific genre of MUD that is over 20 years old. If the style of MUSH played by "most" people on this board is not represented on OR, then those people don't really need to worry about OR. It's that simple.

I was hoping this would come up.

Last I checked (two weeks back), OR represents itself as a site for discussion of all online text-based role-playing games.

All.

Not some.

Not even only those that fall inside the Three Rules of Jeshin's Best-Game Ideology.

All. Even Choose-Your-Own-Adventures.

OR spotlights those games with three different criteria. I think these criteria are bad ideas, but because of a lot of things it became clearer on the OR site the difference between the two.

This is an Advertisement Thread. It's not a "re-brand and design Optional Realities" thread. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

This is Soapbox, a discussion forum, where discussion will happen. Engaging with that discussion makes you part of it. If you don't want to be part of that discussion, stop engaging. If you want the board admin to cut off discussion here, ask. I'm not sure why that's hard to understand, either.

I have no idea why both you and @crayon seem to have little sense of self-awareness, but that lack of self-awareness is a huge reason why I don't want OR to be successful. (Sorry, @Jeshin. I am very, very sorry to say that about what should be an awesome, inclusive project.)

[WTFE]

@Jaunt said:

You're succeeding at turning off your very target market. You're failing at PR. You should move forward by learning small things like "telling a discussion board you're not interested in discussion is a Bad Idea.

Please, quote me where they said that they weren't interested in discussion.

…

OK, @Jeshin is Used Car Salesman-in-Chief. @crayon is Yappy the Wonder Pooch. You are just plain old Dick Nixon with your deranged "deny everything" approach.

I'm not so certain that you are the greatest spoke person for "good PR", but then again, I'm not here for PR. If I were, I wouldn't be able to write so candidly.

Here's a hint, Dick Nixon: there's a difference between "candid" and "disingenuously stupid".

Our community is a specific genre of MUD that is over 20 years old. If the style of MUSH played by "most" people on this board is not represented on OR, then those people don't really need to worry about OR. It's that simple.

And, conversely, this is not the board for you to advertise on then. Jesus Fucking Christ! Merciful Fucking Allah! Compassionate Fucking Buddha! Are you really that fucking thick, or is this some Laurie Anderson scale of performance art? Let me guess. You're wearing skates that have been frozen into a large block of ice and are posting on MU Soapbox continually while the ice melts, right?

However, as we've received numerous great users from this site at OR, I would venture to say that your perception is critically flawed.

Name three. (Hint: if you come back with "I won't tell you" you have failed to substantiate your claim and your claim can safely be ignored.)

Oh, this? Another example of misunderstanding intention and ideas.

Note, too, the classic Dick Nixon approach of blaming people for "misunderstanding intention" instead of the original writer for "miscommunicating intention". This is a classic reversal manoeuvre.

Free clue×four here, Dick: it is the job of OR's people to communicate their intent clearly, not our job to read every conceivable intent. If you can't communicate your intent clearly in your advertisements, learn to do so or...

Chorus

Get lost. 滚开. Berambus. Biến đi. चले जाओ।. Хол яв. Hau ab. Vas t'en. Уходи.

[Sunny]

@Jaunt

And I'm not sure how it's hard to understand that telling a discussion board that you're not interested in discussion can be a little annoying to the people on that board. You're still not paying attention. Are you going to start? Anytime soon?

Also, as per what Theno said...@Jeshin has repeatedly stated that it's a site for us too, that we're included even though we're not spotlighted. So you're now telling us that he lied?

[Sunny]

Maybe this is part of the problem, @Jaunt.

The 'advertisement' board is still a place for discussion, here! Amazing.

[Jaunt]

@WTFE said:

Name three. (Hint: if you come back with "I won't tell you" you have failed to substantiate your claim and your claim can safely be ignored.)

Go look through our user manifest. It's public record.

@Sunny said:

Also, as per what Theno said...@Jeshin has repeatedly stated that it's a site for us too, that we're included even though we're not spotlighted. So you're now telling us that he lied?

We have an "Other Games" section that you're welcome to use to advertise and talk about your games.

@Sunny said:

Maybe this is part of the problem, @Jaunt.

The 'advertisement' board is still a place for discussion, here! Amazing.

It's not the place where we prefer to discuss changing the inherent branding and nature of our website. Your inability to understand why this is does not reflect well on your critical thinking skills.

I doubt that it scores you as many points with @Thenomain as you hope it will, either.

@Thenomain said:

but that lack of self-awareness is a huge reason why I don't want OR to be successful. (Sorry, @Jeshin. I am very, very sorry to say that about what should be an awesome, inclusive project.)

Your attempts at emotional manipulation aren't as refined as you think they are.

@Thenomain said:

OR spotlights those games with three different criteria. I think these criteria are bad ideas, but because of a lot of things it became clearer on the OR site the difference between the two.

As I've already stated, OR is still in the process of adjusting its self-definition, which is precisely the norm for a new online community. While your points are entirely valid, in regards to its confusing mission and separation of services it offers to the games of its community, I'm not sure what else to do other than acknowledge their validity. Any changes are going to stem from discussions on our site.