OC Superhero Discussion

[headery]

Lots of interesting systems here. I'll have to check them out. To mention Masks again, it isn't really a system that can be min/maxed. A different powerset (superstrength vs. martial arts) doesn't really mean anything mechanically, and failure and vulnerability are the only avenues for advancement. Like Paradox alluded to, it's a system concerned primarily with progressing narratives through character growth and relationships/bonds.

That said, I'm not sure how it'll work with a game that has adults and teenagers, which is where I'm seeing the most interest. Its main theme is finding identity in a world where everyone is trying to influence you. Not to say that adults are completely grounded in their identity, but a lot of moves would have to be renamed, at least.

Regardless, it's been pretty validating seeing people excited about the idea. I'd run a game like that myself if I had any coding skills whatsoever.

[Lilli]

I'm familiar with Masks or.... Apocalypse to be more precise, which is what Masks is using. So it is perfectly reasonable to move a MU game into multiple directions using AWE, not just rooting it to Teens?

[headery]

@lilli I'm sure there are other PbtA games that would be good for a more general superhero setting (Worlds In Peril was mentioned). I'm not confident that Masks is that system, at all.

[ZombieGenesis]

I think if people wanted a game combining or made exclusively of adult OCs then Masks is not the way to go. Masks does what it does well and what it does is teen heroes.

My suggestions for an aged mixed or adult exclusive game? All of these are low to medium crunch(so no M&M 3E or Champions or anything) and I've used them with my own group with at least some level of success.

1. If people really want PbtA I'd go World's Finest. Or a hacked version. You have some approaches and then your character is defined by(and I'm paraphrasing, my group used a hacked version of the core rules) what they can do easily, what they can do with difficulty, what they can do with extreme effort, and what they can do by pushing themselves to their limits.

2. If you don't want PbtA but want something quick and easy I might suggest FATE Accelerated. My group was able to make characters in 5 minutes and gameplay was super smooth. The problem with any version of Fate, however, is that it does require a certain level of buy-in by anyone playing it.

3. For some medium crunch I'd suggest a hacked version of the current version of Aberrant. It's a pretty slick system that could be hacked to be more generic than it is. Or leave it largely as it is(though I would streamline c-gen) if you want a game with a darker theme(your powers will corrupt you).

4. I think the easiest game to use would likely be Prowlers and Paragons Ultimate Edition. A D6 based system that plays very well, IMO.

I also think any one of these could be coded in Ares fairly easily(barring full on web/scene integration, which is the most complex part of Ares IMO). In-game character generation with in-game and web based character sheets and a basic dice system at any rate.

Those are my suggestions at any rate.

[faraday]

@zombiegenesis said in OC Superhero Discussion:

I also think any one of these could be coded in Ares fairly easily(barring full on web/scene integration, which is the most complex part of Ares IMO). In-game character generation with in-game and web based character sheets and a basic dice system at any rate.

It depends on what you want really. Chargen is a pain to code in any MUSH for any system. It's just tedious making sure everything's set right, keeping track of points, etc. And web chargen is a crapton of work for most systems just due to the complexity of building GUI selectors.

Scene integration probably isn't much.

• If you just want to roll dice (like you tell it "roll 4d6") there's a pre-built dice plugin.
• If you want to type what to roll (like you tell it "roll Strength") you can copy the Fate plugin version and have it done in like an hour or so.
• Any more than that and you're starting to get into more complex code.

[ZombieGenesis]

@faraday When I mention what could be done in Ares I was stating what I could do personally based on my own skills and limitations, not necessarily what could be done in an absolute sense.

[Paradox]

Well I think it also depends on how much you expect players and story tellers to lean on the system.

If it's something that is sometime used then I think you could easily do a very simple dice roll system with traits and abilities for your "moves". I could see that being the quick and easy route regarding using ares.

[ZombieGenesis]

I think some folk see Ares as an obstacle to creating a game using "system x" and I thought I'd address that for a moment. Anything you could do in TinyMUX or MUSH or whatever you can easily replicate using Ares. Ares gives you all of those tools plus other things.

I think the problem with Ares is that people expect FS3 level integration with any system plugin coded for it(web based character generation, full on systems for combat through the scene system, etc). That's where things get hairy. Those things would require a lot of effort and work and, in most cases I believe, are unnecessary.

Ares by itself is an amazing platform even if you only utilize it for the character directory and scene system. Ares is MUSH/X++. It just also gives you the tools to build on that to go even further(web based character sheets, web based c-gen, etc).

Ares is like a buffet table limited only by the talents and abilities of your chef(coder). By default you get everything you could get in a MUSH/X with the addition of a built in wiki, character profile system, and web based scenes. On top of that you can add other things as your desired or are capable of creating.

In short, Ares isn't the obstacle. The expectations of what it means to be an Ares game is I think.

[Paradox]

@zombiegenesis 100%

That's what I was saying as well (but doing it with half my brain shut down). I think that the primary features of Ares are what I personally would be after. The secondary elements (such as FS3 elements which don't really fit the goal) and the integrated Chargen could be set aside for an on-game chargen.

The big thought atm is this is getting a bit more into the weeds. The actual implementation of things. I'm happy to have these conversations and pitch in wherever to make things happen. I think making things accessible to people is the goal and for myself, I feel that Ares is the most accessible thing out there atm.

[Too Old For This]

@headery I'm so very glad you brought this up. MASKS is generally very teen-based (they have a whole splatbook about the city and its superhero academy) buuuuuuuuuuuuut anything in there can easily be re-worded for adults, even 'golden years' aged adults. Some of the playbooks can't really be used for an adult without some hefty tweaking (The Innocent comes to mind).. but you could have an Innocent whose goal is to reform their aged self and at the end of their arc they 'become' a Reformed! So the teen version goes back to the past, and the current, more aged, adult version takes over as a Reformed.

And that's really kinda the best thing about MASKS. Its super flexible, and is based more on the RP than the dice. If you can come up with a plausible reason for X, chances are the game is set up to allow you to do it.

[Runescryer]

I think that when you talk about 'System Crunch' in Champions and M&M, you need to separate it into 2 categories: Mechanics and Chargen. For Chargen, yes; both Champions and M&M are heavy on the crunch. But the actual mechanics of both games is easier than D&D.

Champions: Roll 3d6 to see if you succeed in a task, rolling under a target number. For Skills, the target number is the skill level, modified. For combat, The Target number is 11, modified by the attacker's Offense and the Target's Defense. If an attack or power succeeds, roll Damage or Effect indicated by power.

M&M: Roll 1d20, add in the Skill or Attack bonus, target number is 11 plus Defense bonus. If an Attack or Power succeeds, target rolls 1d20 + Resistance, trying to beat a target number of 15 + Power

That's literally all it is for both systems, Aside from Champions Normal v Killing damage system. The pages and pages of system that everyone dreads are 90% 'How To Code'

As for the crunch of Character Generation, it's true that there's not much to get around that. However, I know there's a free Excel/Google Spreadsheet character generator for M&M 3e, editable and with every power filled in, created back when the system came out as DC Adventures. I'm working at tracking down a copy; I'm 90% sure I still have it on my main system. I'm also 90% sure you can store it and share it on Google Drive. I'll update later.

EDIT: Found it on my Drive.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hez1K6o0LBw6IIAE6zqy8XhhNUx1DkSd/view?usp=sharing

[ZombieGenesis]

@runescryer I don't disagree with you in regards to crunch. The sad fact is, however, that most people look at those games(especially Champions) and just go on about needing an advanced math degree to play it. I find most people who say that have never actually played Champions(which is my personal favorite Hero RPG) but that's how people see it.

In regards to most of the crunch being in character generation, sadly that means most of the heavy lifting comes in coding that character generation in a suitable MU format. I did a M&M 3E system for TinyMUX and it was no mean feat.

For me, in regards to this conversation, as a coder, I'd have to weigh how much time, effort, and energy it would take compared to other systems that may work just as well but would be much easier to code.

[SquirrelTalk]

@lilli said in OC Superhero Discussion:

Grid - People still use one? I see a bunch of residences. When people want a scene they usually set it up on a channel or via pages or even +rp and off they go. Even in FC games, players tend to be separated by power levels, find and tag into plots they prefer - not wander into Galactus vs the Fantastic Four scene on the grid somewhere.

System. I find most systems stifle creativity, not invite it. Also, systems always invite min/max or people looking for the loophole. That being said, I've always been more attracted to a story, rather than a system. I say more, not only. Main hurdle to any MU* using a system not already boxed is making it - and that's just the main hurdle.

I agree. A grid is kind of a relic of muds. They get in the way of finding noteworthy locations, if anything. At absolute most all you need is a 'city hub' room with links to super relevant locations. Even then, you can just say where they are in an RP room.

Also, not a big fan of complex systems, or building around a base game that requires you to be very specific age bracket or up-and-comer or whatnot. I play for the roleplay exclusively. I get that freeform isn't always possible; and that having stats to compare against each other can be useful, but if we're going full on 'table top', I'm probably out. Tabletop works with a small group going on either a campaign or an isolated adventure; it doesn't make sense for 'any number of characters could be interacting at random, or hog piling on a single villain'.

[Paradox]

I think this is the reason why the 'mechanics' conversation has continually drifted back to the Masks mindset. Rolling 2d6+one of your five stats only when specific conditions are met. Everything else is narratively driven. That level of freedom I think works for people who want to just narrative and for those who want some variance in their characters and the results.

[SquirrelTalk]

@paradox Sure, you can probably use the dice/mechanics of Mask without clinging to its exact theme. I would assume, anyway.

[SquirrelTalk]

@too-old-for-this That's way too complicated. Who would be playing your older self? The main character in a story could get away with having a setup like that, but not one person out of (ideally) dozens.

[headery]

@squirreltalk I'm guessing they'd be NPCed.

If someone wanted to try reworking MASKS to fit a MU with a mix of teenagers and adults, I'd be all over that.

I'm not familiar with the other games, but I'd like a system that was more story-oriented. Not to say that the games mentioned are just attack rolls and skill checks, but that's just my preference. That or just freeform.

[Misadventure]

I am still a huge advocate for use a game system to design characters, sort of a way to make sure everyone has the same number and power of options, and then just free form it from there.

Other than that, I feel that for an OC game (really any game) there should be a strongly presented feel to all of it, no matter the power level. An Editors take as it were, influencing the representation of every character OC or FC.

However, MU*s are weird so maybe not.

[ZombieGenesis]

@misadventure said in OC Superhero Discussion:

I am still a huge advocate for use a game system to design characters, sort of a way to make sure everyone has the same number and power of options, and then just free form it from there.

This is exactly how I feel about it. For supers anyway. I like sheets as a way to give an "at-a-glance" look at a character. It's easier to look at a sheet and go "Oh, he has Strength 15 and Invulnerability 10", which tells you how hard he can hit and how much damage he can take in 20 or 30 characters, rather than reading through a few paragraphs of powers to get the same information.

[Runescryer]

@zombiegenesis I'd be down for this as well. I' say M&M would be the better system if we're just using a system for power modeling.