[REQUEST] Comprehensive MUSH experience

[Thenomain]

I don't know who decides what a genre is, but in discussions I've seen and had, Steampunk is either 'around the Victorian era with steam-and-gear anacrotech' or 'a fashion style'. Neither is compelling for a literary style. I'm certainly not going to be the arbiter of this, but when this is as Steampunk as this, I wonder if there is more to it than "check it! gears!"

It's why I like saying that I like "neo-Victorian" and not "Steampunk". Hell, I like "neoretro" now,

edit: Is it Steampunk Pulp? Is it Steampunk High Magic? Is it Steampunk Grit? Steampunk Post-Apoc? I think Steampunk as more a flavor or a setting element, and not itself a thing. How about that?

[Chime]

The Difference Engine was magnificent-- but then I'm a computer dork and the idea of viable mainframes made with gears and steampower and punch cards is AWESOME. It really could work, and thinking about how to do these things and how history might have been different is something I find fascinating.

Now, "steampunk" as a modern style can be an absolutely horrible thing. Tacky use of corsets that aren't worn right, stupid plastic gears spraypainted and glued to all surfaces? Ugh. It is bad and if you like this you should feel bad.

Reasonable approximations of Victorian-era clothing at each of the various social classes can be very nice. The whole ethic of Reason-- that we can observe natural phenomena and draw conclusions about the working of the universe and better ourselves by doing so and that any gods that might exist are irrelevant-- I love that.

[Sunny]

@Thenomain

It makes perfect sense. I personally do see it as a genre, but I can see why someone else would view it more as a flavor rather than a particular genre.

[Misadventure]

My two cents: SteamPunk is a style. I agree with some folks and decry the use of Punk in the term. It isn't used in either the Cyberpunk context, whence it came, nor the punk scene context.

I think of the thing as Victorian science-fiction. One author says SteamPulp is a better term. I am fond of Steam Romance, as in a romanticized fantasy.

I don't actually know how it isn't just fantasy or science fiction, atop whatever else might get mish mashed into it.

What do you think are it's defining traits as a genre? Victorian-esque?

[Coin]

In the case of steampunk, it really is a sub-genre, same as cyberpunk.

Both are clearly science fiction, with a certain "skin" on them that encompasses not only visuals/descriptions but also certain types of messages and philosophies. Cyberpunk stories often have to do with transhumanism, while steampunk stories have to do with, as Chime mentioned, the Age of Reason and discovery, exploration, etc. Steampunk is like Pulp's Sci-Fi Younger Sibling. It's pulp! But with SCIENCE! Not necessarily CORRECT science, but the SPIRIT OF SCIENCE. And while you could find this in older pulp stories (John Carter of Mars and a lot of early sci-fi) they typically lacked the punk element.

You can write all sorts of stories with cyberpunk or steampunk descriptions and styles, but what really drives them home as genres is how they changed the face of sci-fi and speculative fiction. The PUNK is there because they were revolutionary in the way they approached the broader genre. Cyberpunk and Steampunk changed traditional sci-fi for a lot of people. There is, IMO, "punk" in steampunk and cyberpunk.

[Misadventure]

Define punks revolutionary approach.

I am all for this being a new genre. If it has a defining traits. I will agree that it can be sci-fi, or fantasy, but perhaps you do not.

[Coin]

Let's start with "punk" is not a genre. It isn't even, IMO, a musical genre. It's a philosophy, a way of approaching life. At least, if we're talking about the more conventional meaning of punk, and not the older, more traditional meaning, which is essentially "trash".

@Misadventure said:

I am all for this being a new genre. If it has a defining traits. I will agree that it can be sci-fi, or fantasy, but perhaps you do not.

What? I literally said that IMO it was a sub-genre of sci-fi (and, sure, fantasy). I'm not sure how you get that I do not agree with that from my statements.

[Thenomain]

@Coin, I'm going to be briefly frustrating (on purpose, that is) to make a point: Science Fiction is, IMO, a sub-genre of Fiction.

This may be true, but so what? I hesitated early on to be clear that I am not the Genre Police because statements like "punk is not a musical genre" leads us down so many rat-holes to fill any ten academic institutions.

I once insulted an author at a dinner with authors after he said he's working on a Steampunk Novel and asked him, "What is Steampunk?"

I was once insulted by a panel of authors (known, published names at that) when they said that Cyberpunk is empty and challenged the notion by bringing up the way that Cyberpunk, especially from the original source, is mainly about socioeconomic interactions. They laughed.

I once sincerely believed that the drum was not an instrument, in the way that 'null' is not a number; something without which the rest is impossible to describe, but still not an instrument. I feel bad for my younger, stupider self for being so conceitedly wrong.

We have opinions on what is and isn't a genre, but what I want to know, if it is a genre or a sub-genre or a sub-sub-sub-genre, what defines it?

[Coin]

Genere and sub-genre, to me, are the same thing, much like one matryoshka doll doesn't stop being a doll because it fits inside another matryoshka doll. That's all I meant. So, you're right, and you could have been right without being frustrating. You just like being frustrating.

[Misadventure]

@coin You ... are irritated that I added a clause (sci-fi and fantasy), which you added in your position on, but then wonder why i would say before said statement that you might not agree?

Carry on. Yes, I get that punk is a philosophy. List it's traits, explain how they define the "steampunk".

Examples:
Do It Yourself, don't let others do it for you, personal is more genuine than expertise or socially entrenched.

Anger and the need for social change.

Etc.

Where the eff is Peverel when i need him?

[Thenomain]

@Coin said:

Genere and sub-genre, to me, are the same thing [...] That's all I meant.

Well it's pretty clear that I didn't know this is what you meant, and that I agree with you, and that you should stop distracting me from coding.

---

What @Chime describes, to me, is Victorian Nationalism fantasy, whatever other elements it's mashed up against to make Bronte Babies. If Mickey Mouse wearing goggles gets to be "Steampunk", I'm not sure what it is other than fashion, set-peices, compelling ephemera. "Seven Samurai" is a Western, even if it's set in Japan (and copied enough times to be undeniably fundamental as well as excellent). Kurosawa didn't make a new genre; the setting is ephemera, but damn if it isn't compelling.

What I don't think Steampunk has is the ability to stand on its own. That is, I don't think we can't have anything but "Steampunk And...", which is a comment I started my opinion with, mostly so that nobody worried that they weren't doing "pure Steampunk".

[Sunny]

I use 'steampunk' the same way I use 'high fantasy' or 'low fantasy' or 'gritty fantasy' or 'soft sci-fi' or 'hard sci-fi' or 'space opera'. None of these things are in a Proper Dictionary of Gaming Terms that I'm aware of out there. When I say 'high fantasy' or 'epic high fantasy', people can get a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. It's the same thing with 'Steampunk' -- it does come with a generally known (if at least vaguely) sort of feel/thing to it.

I am not trying to define a genre or tell anyone how to use a word or anything else: I'm trying to communicate a generality. There are times where semantics get in the way of communication. I understand that it's good to have clarity and a shared understanding, but there is such a thing as taking that too far.

In other words, you assholes (I say it lovingly) knew what I meant. You still know what I meant. That is, in a practical sense, what matters. I qualify my Steampunk with the 'and' because there are elements that nobody generally, when they think of Steampunk, thinks it would include. Like elves and dwarves. Seriously. It might be a genre or might not be, might be a sub-genre, it doesn't matter how it's classified when we all understand in a general sense (and a general sense is, going back to the particular instance that started the discussion, all that was needed) what we're talking about.

Steampunk, to me: the game is set in Victorian London with SCIENCE! and the struggle between Order (Reason, Technology) and Chaos (Faith, Magic, Intuition). There are flying ships that are powered by steam, and all sorts of brand new technological marvels that are pushing progress forward at all costs. People wear pretty dresses and roll their eyes when Uncle Eddie arrives via jet-pack instead of by carriage to the party.

ETA: Fixed a few words that were wrong. Words are fucking hard.

[Thenomain]

@Sunny said:

In other words, you assholes (I say it lovingly) knew what I meant.

I can't see why anyone would get confused about what Steampunk is about.

[Rook]

Okay, I wasn't kidding when I asked for a reference list of genres. I think that sites/places simply use their own judgement, but if one were building a form that allowed people to sign up their games, be searchable, this would be important.

Unless you just went with a tagging system.

Ahem.

Never did see that effort for MUCommunity go far. That kinda irks me. Yeah, side note, whatever.

[Misadventure]

I sense five dimensional transforming anti-deSitterspace Venn Diagrams on the horizon.

[Chime]

@Rook I think tags would probably be the better approach. There is enough disagreement about genre territories and styling and whatnot that they prove more expressive. A lot of imageboard sites seem to have done the same-- with extensible tags.

As far as that other effort, yeah. Disappointing. I offered what R&D I already had toward that and everyone seemed to think, "Oh, ew. That's old stuff. We're going to use <insert superfluous new technology here> to do everything."

@Misadventure said:

I sense five dimensional transforming anti-deSitterspace Venn Diagrams on the horizon.

If you maintain tagsets as a popularity vote of whether different people agree that tag applies to a place or not, as well as containment/exclusion/etc relations between tags with a similar uncertainty/voting mechanic, then hyperbolic projections of the effective semantic cloud do make sense.

[Thenomain]

I dislike tags when I'm looking for something by category. I'd rather be expected to know what thing means by their definition than guessing what someone is calling it this week. My "neoretro history" tag would never be used and therefore be lost to people who might otherwise interested.

I think Google's approach to tags is the best ("let's see what's being talked about and how this relates to other things based upon this keyword"), but doubt it's worth it for finding pretendy text games.

[Misadventure]

[Silver]

@Misadventure Mmmmmmmmm theories.

[Jeshin]

Didn't want to create a whole new thread for this:

Question - In the MUSH community what is the standard policy on meta-posting, intuitive posting, 6th sense posting, extra-sensory posting, the posting of information which may not or cannot be readily perceived by players?

Example: Jeshin walks down the road after a long night out drinking. He has a faint sheen of sweat on his face and cannot walk straight as evident by his slow weaving route.