Positivity Going Forward...

[Selira]

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

One look at your post history and Reddit history pretty clearly demonstrates you struggle with this. How are you, @Ghost, pledging to walk the walk and resist your inner urge to dance in flames?

[Ghost]

@selira You should know that it appears that you care more about me than I do your opinion about me. How about you stop carrying this around and move on with your life? Alas, clapping back at bullies is different from preying on innocent people with self-esteem issues who weren't looking for a fight, and you're clearly looking for conflict.

Be nice to me and others and I'll be cool with you. It's that simple. Let it go and gabble for updates with your make-believe assumptions about who I am with people who will pat you on the back for it elsewhere.

[Selira]

@ghost So you don't intend to look at yourself critically. I know you don't care about anything but your own opinion of yourself, that's been made rather clear.

If this forum is to change, people like you need to really take a hard look at yourself. This weaseling isn't healthy for any community.

I'm out. Everything I've said holds.

[Ghost]

@selira I 100% do not intend to look at myself critically, come to the expectations/revelations that you have, and then submit my adherences to those expectations for review to you and your friends....who would inevitably either decide that despite my efforts I'm still (as you put it) a slimy piece of shit or happily place me on some kind of regular probation where I'll suffer ridicule again if I don't continue to agree with their assessment on everything.

I find it silly that you would assume that failure to do so means I only care about my own opinion about myself. In truth, I only care about the opinions about me of the people who behave with respect and dignity whose constructive and respectful opinions have worth.

Sometimes, the right person thinking you're a slimy piece of shit actually means you're probably a good person, depending on the source.

[NotSanni]

That you took the time to drag MSB drama to r/mud and then pretend like you weren't stirring the pot is incredibly telling as to how much you actually value a positive community.

[Ghost]

@notsanni That's a rather generous assessment of what happened there. Was happy to see all of the "not bullies" show up to give "constructive feedback". Eyeroll.

[MisterBoring]

This very much codifies for me that you aren't here for a positive environment. That and some older posts you made claiming you were done with MSB and MUing in general forever.

Good to see you stick with your guns.

[Ghost]

@misterboring Shrug. and? You're taking a response that I took to someone who came to Reddit to bully me as a sign that I'm not believing in what I say about an entirely different forum. A little prestidigitation, there.

Good effort to stir up shit, though.

The context of that response (which has been cleverly omitted in lieu of trying to make some sort of super important argument about me being a hypocrite) was about the "clique" and their bullying and how I felt about their toxic behaviors, bullying, and how unironic it was that 20 of them showed up to a thread I was in on a completely different service to dogpile me. Others who were familiar with the Hog Pit had brought it up, too.

There's nothing wrong with me being happy to see this place take a more respectful approach on an individual basis, and that I feel that way about that group of people (as stated on another completely different service) has no relevance towards my hopes of how things go here.

These people try so hard.

[Derp]

@MisterBoring @NotSanni

I get that you two have bad blood with @Ghost or whatever. I can respect that. But derailing a thread about how to generate more positive interactions with some thinly veiled ad hominems isn't gonna fly.

Go do that on the other forum.

If you want to get into a more heated talk about the criteria for judging sincerity and whatnot, might I suggest the Debates and Reviews section of the forum?

[Macha]

I mean, maybe it's just me.. but it seems like he's making fun of all the tempest in a teapot in that reddit post too, and telling people to chill out and check themselves and stop being bullies..

It all seems in the very same vein as what he's hoping for here.

[hobos]

When I was a kid and used to play these games, the biggest divide in the hobby that I knew about were people playing in the "evil city" and people playing in the "good city". Then I played some PVE sorts of games, quit for several years, and came back as an adult. The first divide I learned about then was that there was a difference between a MUD and a MUSH, and people had strong opinions about this. I thought it was silly, and that this was a lingering niche hobby and we should all just be friends.

This divide is even sillier though, and I get that it's fun drama to go on and on about, but ... it's dumb, c'mon folks. All the "these people" and "that forum". Cool off and get over it. Nobody involved in this scuffle is actually an evil villain. None of this is as earth-shaking or terrible as anyone is making it out to be. First step to positivity: actually stop being negative.

[Derp]

@hobos

I don't begrudge them anything. I don't think anyone is an evil villain in this story. Two groups had a disagreement, and one of them decided to part ways and do their own thing. It's a tale as old as time.

It's also an action that I approve of, as I'm sure @Ganymede does as well. Competition is healthy. It's a crucible that lets you really refine what you're going for and appeal to the crowd you're seeking to attract. If there's one thing that we learned when MSB was dying a slow death due to Redis weirdness, it's that there really weren't any alternatives out there if, for some reason, the server that MSB is stored on catches fire tomorrow.

Now there is an alternative. People have choices. Two different cultures can come out of it. Or, if not that, then at least there are options and redundancy for if something terrible happens to one or the other.

I don't wish any of them ill-will. That's not what the post was about. It's just not something that we want to see here.

Most of the folks over there aren't banned from here. I'm sure that no small few of them will wander to one or the other, and a large chunk of them will stay on both. Nobody is persona non grata unless they've deliberately gone out of their way to be so, and even then we've decided that a few of them were edge cases enough that they were probably a bridge too far.

Hopefully the few that are trying to get out their last hurrahs or whatever get it out of their system soon, so that we can move on to something more interesting and everyone can get settled into their respective preferences.

[Ganymede]

@derp said in Positivity Going Forward...:

Now there is an alternative. People have choices. Two different cultures can come out of it. Or, if not that, then at least there are options and redundancy for if something terrible happens to one or the other.

This.

I was approached about giving a copy of the database to Tributary, a long-standing member and someone that I trust. Her concern was that we would let MSB and the Hog Pit die or get deleted. This is part of the reason why we decided to switch all of the boards to a mode that can be viewed by anyone, with or without an account. The folks at Brand MU Day (I think that's what it's called) therefore can link to threads here (I think) or otherwise cite to them.

But we don't need to compete. We just want to head in a different direction, that's all. I think people can enjoy both places for what they provide. Who knows? Maybe a third group will pop up.

[faraday]

@derp said in Positivity Going Forward...:

If there's one thing that we learned when MSB was dying a slow death due to Redis weirdness, it's that there really weren't any alternatives out there if, for some reason, the server that MSB is stored on catches fire tomorrow.

I mean, there have been? Reddit, the Ares forum, the Evennia group... other venues exist and have for years. I'm not saying competition is bad, but people go where the people are. That's been true ever since WoRA and Electric Soup back in the day. I applaud the shift to a more positive environment, but I'm skeptical as to whether the community has the bandwidth to really support multiple forums.

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in Positivity Going Forward...:

I applaud the shift to a more positive environment, but I'm skeptical as to whether the community has the bandwidth to really support multiple forums.

For all that you do and have done to make the hobby better, that you still can post up here from time to time indicates to me that the community probably has more bandwidth than it takes credit for.

[Derp]

@faraday

Good points! I don't interact with some of those so they aren't really on my radar, and none of my close circle really does either. At least not where I can hear about it, anyway.

I don't know if any of those serve quite the same function as MSB/BMD, but you're right. There have been alternatives.

Whether one or both of the current forums thrives, or whether more options spring up, remains to be seen. From what I've seen so far, lots of old faces are starting to pop back up again, so I'm confident that everyone can find a 'home' they're comfortable with, so to speak.

[lordbelh]

@ganymede said in Review of Recent Bans:

I think a substantial part of the community does not care for, and never cared for, the sort of public-shaming of the Hog Pit. And I now believe, after 20 years, that the idea that public shaming will cause a change in behavior is pretty vain, if not a pretext to simply being a shitty person.

I'm going to reply to this here, because it feels like the better thread for it.

If we're talking about the general public shaming that's involved in issuing a warning against a player, or a game, for shitty behavior, I like at least having an idea of the issues at hand. Even if it sometimes goes too far and becomes a dogpile just for its own sake.

But when it comes to the public shaming of opinions exchanged on these boards, then I'm in full agreement. I don't, and I've never liked it. If you want to change someone's mind, or even just have a semi-reasonable discussion, then the only way to do that is through two-way empathy. If you want someone to listen to your points, you have to be willing to listen in good faith to theirs. (Edit: Listening does not equal agreeing with, condoning or anything of the type. It just means listening, and acknowledging them as an actual person rather than a devil.)

Sure, they might not return the favor, but if you don't try then why would you ever expect them to either?

If all someone want is to be right, and meme-flame and feel righteous in their fury, then ok. But how does it help anyone? Anger can be a powerful motivator to take the fight against wrongs, and it's often warranted. But it's also a dangerous and seductive feeling. It's easy to get addicted to it. It turns discussions into just short-term euphoria opportunities where you can get your little shot of dopamine by pwning the other side, and then getting a second shot when notifications tell you others joined in. It's easy to forget that the other person is a person, with their own fully realized internal life and experiences. Even if you're championing views that I share, the way you're doing it makes you part of the problem in my eyes. I've seen plenty of it on these forums.

I can't say I'll miss all of that, if it lessen a little.

@faraday said in Positivity Going Forward...:

I applaud the shift to a more positive environment, but I'm skeptical as to whether the community has the bandwidth to really support multiple forums.

I share this concern. I've seen other hobby communities split, and devolve into little tribes bickering over pointless ancient scores, reducing the whole community as neither has enough members to actually foster a healthy group.

That said, I won't assume it'll go that way. It might. Or perhaps it'll be for the better. I honestly don't know, and since I'm not in a position of authority either way, I'll just go with the flow and keep up with lurking on two forums rather than just one.

[Ganymede]

@lordbelh said in Positivity Going Forward...:

If all you want is to be right, and meme-flame and feel righteous in your fury, then ok. ... It's easy to forget that the other person is a person, with their own fully realized internal life and experiences. Even if you're championing views that I share, the way you're doing it makes you part of the problem in my eyes.

I do not know what it is you're objecting to here, and I'd like to know. In what way am I part of the problem, if the problem you are referring to is public shaming?

[lordbelh]

@ganymede said in Positivity Going Forward...:

@lordbelh said in Positivity Going Forward...:

If all you want is to be right, and meme-flame and feel righteous in your fury, then ok. ... It's easy to forget that the other person is a person, with their own fully realized internal life and experiences. Even if you're championing views that I share, the way you're doing it makes you part of the problem in my eyes.

I do not know what it is you're objecting to here, and I'd like to know. In what way am I part of the problem, if the problem you are referring to is public shaming?

Sorry, I'll have to edit my post as it isn't as clear as I'd liked. I agreed with your point. The 'you' in the quote applied to someone engaging in public shaming for its own sake. Not you as in you, @Ganymede

[Ganymede]

@lordbelh

Sorry, bud!