RL Anger

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Coin said in RL Anger:

People who "were all Paris", but aren't Ecuador (just to pick one instance of each out of random). I hate this facebook trend, and some of my good friends do it and I know they're doing it from a place of empathy but it still chafes.

I try not to be cynical when I see my friends doing this. I know it comes from the very human place of wanting to do something. Though just quietly donating or posting a donation link on your FB would also be doing something and come with a sentiment I'm less meh about but idk. I get why this grates, even if I try not to hate on it too much.

[deadculture]

@Kanye-Qwest My friends can make arguments that do not involve emotional appeals and they do not get mad at the slightest whiff of disagreement. When we talk, we talk as equals, not with the presumption we are right and the other party is wrong. You know, a social skill that should have been acquired with adulthood, but somehow has been lost to the ravages of time.

[deadculture]

@Coin My heart goes out to Ecuadoreans. Natural disasters are never a good thing and if I was in a position of help, I would. Those earthquakes in developing countries tend to be more unforgiving than places where emergency services and a framework to tend to victims of said disasters is in place.

[Vorpal]

@Three-Eyed-Crow A note on Ecuadorean donations: Make sure that if you're going to make a donation, make it to one of the groups outside of Ecuador who are coming in to help. As a native from that country, I can tell you that the Ecuadorean government will not think twice about finding ways to pocket a chunk of the donations. It is exceptionally corrupt- far beyond what most people can imagine, the lack of shame is almost surrealist.

The government allegedly had something close to a billion dollars that they currently can't account for (and the scandal is being hushed thanks to the country's gag laws), which is why the president is talking about opening a credit line for 600 million dollars for emergency relief. So... try to donate to something like the Colombian rescue teams or something of that sort.

(You might want to spread the word about this, too)

[deadculture]

@Vorpal Most South American nations are like that, sadly.

[Vorpal]

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

@Vorpal Most South American nations are like that, sadly.

To an extent, yes... but trust me, Ecuador is on the "Did I step into a parallel universe?" level. I've had friends from Colombia who moved to Ecuador for a while who were completely at a loss and flabbergasted with the absolute bald-faced, no-shame, out-in-the-open level of corruption. People in most countries try to at least keep up a certain pretense... but not in Ecuador.

[Kanye Qwest]

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

@Kanye-Qwest My friends can make arguments that do not involve emotional appeals and they do not get mad at the slightest whiff of disagreement. When we talk, we talk as equals, not with the presumption we are right and the other party is wrong. You know, a social skill that should have been acquired with adulthood, but somehow has been lost to the ravages of time.

So every person who supports the Black Lives Matter 'movement' is presumptuous and overemotional...and old, I guess?

[deadculture]

@Kanye-Qwest No, I think I was making a pointed remark about you, (and the mention of ravages of time was perhaps not well put, so let me make it crystal clear: these days, intellectual maturity is lacking and people would rather put their fingers in their ears and go 'lalala' than hearing an argument opposite to their view) but if the shoe fits...

@Vorpal Interesting. Was that why Ecuador switched to the American dollar as their national currency? To make money laundering easier, anyhow. How come there hasn't been a government to at least clean things up? Is it a shameless, kleptocratic oligarchy as with the rest of the continent? In the sense that anyone who tries to make a change (Argentina excluded), ends up killed or worse.

[Kanye Qwest]

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

Then again, I don't think I would want to be friends with a Black Lives Matter supporter, either. I tend to be a bit picky about my company.

This is what I'm asking about. Considering the real common denominator between all of them is an interest in ending the treatment of black lives as disposable, unworthy or threatening, what EXACTLY is it about all Black Lives Matter supporters that make them inferior to you?

[deadculture]

@Kanye-Qwest The misguided way they go about their cause, and how easy they become pawns to third party interests. I do not trust nor believe the legitimacy of any group who is funded by some of the more wealthy individuals. How they shut down conversation. See:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2913625/Billionaire-George-Soros-spent-33MILLION-bankrolling-Ferguson-demonstrators-create-echo-chamber-drive-national-protests.html

There's such a thing as fighting discrimination, and many ways one can do so from the ground up, individually or as a group. Getting George Soros' money is not one of them, not to mention hypocritical.

[Kanye Qwest]

The Daily Mail, natch! Well, clearly you've thought this out and you weren't just being smug and racist. Carry on!

[Vorpal]

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

@Vorpal Interesting. Was that why Ecuador switched to the American dollar as their national currency? To make money laundering easier, anyhow. How come there hasn't been a government to at least clean things up? Is it a shameless, kleptocratic oligarchy as with the rest of the continent?

Not really- the switch to the dollar was organized by a rather unqualified president who thought it would solve inflation. But considering the government's level of corruption was a large driving force behind the inflationary problem... well. That didn't help one bit, as you can imagine.

As to why there hasn't been a government to clean things up? It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived in the country... but as a native who got the fuck out of there a few years ago, I can tell you this:

Ecuador is a corrupt culture. It suffers from severe soul-rot. The pervading cultural attitude is not "how can I make things better?' but rather "How can I take advantage of something?"

Let me give you an example. My father worked in the government for several years- he was one of the people who fought to bring updated hydroelectric energy to the country. After many years of that, he returned to the private sector to work. For many years the rumor that kept going around in my father’s circle of acquaintances was “Nicolas is very smart! He’s keeping all that money he stole while in his government position hidden. Very clever of him.”

Eventually, after a decade of that alleged money not surfacing and my father’s lifestyle not reflecting that of a millionaire’s, those acquaintances realized that my father had, in fact, not stolen any money while in the government.

The consensus? That my father was an idiot. For being honest.

This is not an anomaly. This is part and parcel of the Ecuadorean experience, where a phone company (state owned) employee will ask you for a bribe, while you are standing in line at the office, in front of everyone, so you can have a phone line assigned to you. The fact that my father refused to bribe anyone is the reason why we had to wait five years for us to get a new phone line.

Ecuador is a rapacious culture that constantly elects politicians who are more and more populist by the term, and there is no such thing as outrage on the cultural level. The pervasive attitude is “You can’t do anything to change anything, so you might as well take advantage of it.” It’s the kind of sense of life that allows corruption to breed like a fungus. Living there, being part of the culture, is like having an enormous lead weight of a sky baring down on you. It is living with people who see all of these things happen and not give one shit about it- because everything is “can’t do.”

The financial and political situation in Ecuador is a direct result of its culture and the values that culture promotes. There will never be a government that will attempt to ‘clean things up’ for as long as that attitude remains the pervasive Ecuadorean attitude.

That's why I got the fuck out of there faster than the speed of can't.

[deadculture]

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

The Daily Mail, natch! Well, clearly you've thought this out and you weren't just being smug and racist. Carry on!

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur/?page=all

I don't think anyone can be more smug than you, ma cheri.

As for racism, that's funny when the accusation comes from the white girl. How's that working for you?

[Arkandel]

@Vorpal said in RL Anger:

Let me give you an example. My father worked in the government for several years- he was one of the people who fought to bring updated hydroelectric energy to the country. After many years of that, he returned to the private sector to work. For many years the rumor that kept going around in my father’s circle of acquaintances was “Nicolas is very smart! He’s keeping all that money he stole while in his government position hidden. Very clever of him.”

Eventually, after a decade of that alleged money not surfacing and my father’s lifestyle not reflecting that of a millionaire’s, those acquaintances realized that my father had, in fact, not stolen any money while in the government.

The consensus? That my father was an idiot.

Ouch.

Yeah, systematized, widespread corruption is terrible especially after it's been going on for a while (meaning generations) since it comes to be the norm and no one expects things to get better; worse, people who don't want to be part of that system either do so or are actually penalized for their lack of participation.

My father was one of the founders of a local grocery store union when I was a kid. It became successful and as it started to expand until it had a couple of hundred members they elected him as its first president.

A couple of years into the position they called him over to resolve an 'incident'. Basically one of his oldest friends, a founding member as well, was discovered stealing from the central warehouse - basically he had a hidden compartment in his van where he had been stashing extra items, possibly all along, every day he went in to pick up his normal purchases.

Since that person was prominent and a friend of theirs the others of that small circle asked my dad to look the other way and let the guy pay for what he had been stealing all that time if he promised to not do it again. He refused, called the police, and that person went to jail.

As a result they turned on my father for being a 'traitor'. His own old buddies of his wouldn't talk to him, the atmosphere was pretty unpleasant, so in the end he had to step down and eventually left the union he helped build. When a few years later the other guy got out of prison they invited him back.

It's what it is, you know?

[deadculture]

@Vorpal Thank you for sharing that. It was very insightful, on the nature of Ecuador. I have experiences on government-level corruption as well, and have experienced a similar culture to 'How can I take advantage of this'. It's interesting that Ecuador still hasn't privatized some sectors like telecommunications, which seems out of step in regards to the other South American countries, but a big, corrupt government tends to want to keep such things for itself.

@Arkandel Was there any intention on the thief's part to pay? And I am sad your father was forced to leave the union because everyone else was corrupt. Not a good situation to be in.

[Vorpal]

@Arkandel Ouch. Ouch. I'd be lying if I said that my family hasn't been in that position before. Doing the right thing in these cultures turns you into a pariah... which we mostly are.

[Arkandel]

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

@Arkandel Was there any intention on the thief's part to pay? And I am sad your father was forced to leave the union because everyone else was corrupt. Not a good situation to be in.

I really can't say. I was pretty young when it happened and afterwards we (obviously) didn't have anything to do with him again so I never knew him well. I mean I'm sure he would have paid something but of course that doesn't matter - not to mention there was no way to even tell how much he had stolen at that time.

What hurt my dad the most was the lack of support from his friends. They took sides and made the wrong choice.

People can be real assholes.

[Vorpal]

I should also note that Ecuador is now effectively as close to a totalitarian government as you can have without a full declaration. Journalists in Ecuador are warned on a daily basis about possible legal actions that may be taken against them. Newspapers are being forced to publish corrections, on the front page, with texts, headers and layouts sent directly from the Presidency’s Secretariat of Communication. The President has successfully sued a newspaper for slander, jailed its editor and imposed a multi-million dollar bail. Radio stations and newspapers are constantly being taken over by the government, and Our Dear Leader speaks to The People every Saturday through television, on a multi-hour televised block that takes up all channels.

Sometimes, as John Oliver showed, those blocks include the appearance of local clowns. Outside of the President, I mean.

The president who jailed a teenager for flipping him off.

As horrifying as this might make me seem, I regret that the son of a bitch was visiting Rome at the time the earthquake hit. This may make me seem calloused and inhuman in the face of such a tragedy, but that is not my intention. If there had to be a catastrophe, the least it could have done was take out the other catastrophe with it.

[Thenomain]

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

@Thenomain

There are times when it makes more sense to back away from a conversation with one person to have a more productive one with another.

It seemed clear to me that you and @Lithium were missing one another in the night.

Yeah, I got this feeling at the end, too.

I leave this here to finish off my part in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_J0Ng5cUGg

36 Questions Women Have for Men.

My first thought? "No, not all women." I have no clear idea which "women" are being represented here and I'm left to guess. That's a shitty way to approach an issue, and I hope a bunch of women are pissed off at being miscategorized like this.

[Thenomain]

I lied.

@Coin said in RL Anger:

DOUBLEPOST.

P.S. Are you saying that #notallmen isnt' the sort of thing that is distracting and derails a conversation regarding this topic?

Are you telling me that 141 characters isn't enough to have a nuanced conversation? Or that using self-identifying labels instead of clarifying your position is likely to cause harmful miscommunication, because I'm pretty sure it's both.

Also, I don't know what this #notallmen movement is, but I'm pretty sure I already hate them.