RL Anger
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@Arkandel
...huh. I don't think anyone is asking you to personally intervene to rescue women from gropers and harassers.It's not about you seeing it in action and preventing it, at ALL, but I find it interesting that your mind goes that way. It's indicative of something important, and that thing is : loss of agency.
You want to be told where and when this type of thing happens, because you want to prevent it. That's noble, but misguided. We don't need white knights. We don't need protectors and heroes. To want to be that person is not helping women - it's trying to help yourself regain your lost agency.
What we ACTUALLY need is a deeper understanding of the pervasive social issues that make this shit commonplace. We need the people in power, the members of the group of people perpetrating this shit - in this case, men, specifically (because they have a much harder time accepting that struggles are real) white men - to accept that their permissiveness of this privilege is absolutely contributing to the problem.
I'm sorry if that's uncomfortable for you. It's understandable, but it sucks, because I think your (specifically you) heart is in the right place. You don't need to be told what to look for, you need to be told that your idea of helping is not actually the help we need.
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My attitude tends to be "I don't want to have to help, but if I can, I will".
I mean, I don't want these situations to occur; but if they do, I will help.
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@Ganymede said:
settled
Okay, yes, fought would have been a better word choice, but I was referring more to the idea of the thing and less the actual ground-floor circumstances. What people are told and what they do will always be two different things.
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How the hell do I prove that I got cornered in a bathroom at a convention by a guy twice my size?
How the hell do I prove that I was at a LARP game and some guy was all over me, and then when I objected, he hid behind 'it was in character' and all that was done was 'hey, you know, no touching' -- so he promptly found a different target that wasn't going to speak up?
Proof is being asked for things that THERE IS NO PROOF OF besides my word, besides the fact that a bunch of other women have had nearly identical issues and have stated the same things.
You're part of the problem when you start demanding proof because you're saying 'I don't believe you without evidence that doesn't and can't exist'.
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@Arkandel Honestly, just accept the possibility that maybe there's been stuff that's happened that you haven't noticed -- maybe not the most egregious stuff, as you've said, but stuff -- and just say "Okay, I'll try to keep these possibilities in mind in case there's stuff maybe I haven't noticed." @Coin is right: these articles are already telling you what experiences people are having. I get the sense that it's really frustrating for you to hear about really shitty things and feel like you're not in a position to intervene because you haven't seen them, so you're asking for more and more information because you want to help. Women do need more instances of men going "Holy shit, that's really shitty that that happened to you" and overall believing and supporting them in their experiences, because the more everyone hears that, the less people -- maybe not the ones you game with, who may already be awesome and not pull this shit, but spreading past that -- will realize that their support throughout the community to treat people like this is crumbling. Because too many women have experiences saying "This shitty thing happened to me" and having the response from men being "Are you sure?" or "I don't really believe you" or "You're probably exaggerating." When that brand of response is so common, just having someone say "Wow that's really fucking shitty," which may sound like the totally normal and decent thing to you so maybe you can't imagine how people can do otherwise because you yourself are not a terrible person, somehow becomes kind of amazing.
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@Derp said:
My main beef is that a lot of the tone of these things seems to be calling for something more proactive than reactive. The people who are reactive to such things are called out just as much for being part of the problem for not being proactive and, you know, doing something before they've seen anything to do something about.
Admittedly, it is difficult for the average gamer to be proactive. In some cases, it is difficult to be proactive at all.
Let's take @Sunny's example of being cornered the bathroom by a dude twice her size. A proactive course of action may be to stick a security guard in front the women's bathroom to make sure that no men go in. But, then, what if you have a transgendered individual heading in there? You don't want the guard to stop someone because they look or dress like a man. And then, how does this prevent a woman twice @Sunny's size from doing the same thing?
The best proactive course of action is to train ourselves to stop searching for the doubt in an accusation. In MU*ing, when I've confronted people for harassment, I can honestly say that none of the accused have ever told me, flat out, that a harassing conversation or event did not occur. More often than not, they claim: oh, I didn't know; I thought we were friends; I'm disappointed they would think that of me; and so on. It has never been: "that conversation never happened." Which tells me that the perpetrator, out of ignorance or with intent, engaged in behavior that I considered inappropriate. And that's more than enough evidence for me to take action.
Most of us can spot a drama llama a mile away, just from the nature of the accusation. But when a woman says that a person acted towards them in a manner that made them feel uncomfortable, that's not an unclear accusation. Whether their reaction -- becoming uncomfortable -- is reasonable or not, the fact is that whatever happened made them uncomfortable. And, if you confront someone who is ignorant of that, they are apt to apologize or make excuses for their behavior. And if they pick option B, then you take action.
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@Coin said:
If someone tells you groping is bad, and you see groping, you step up and help the person being groped. That's all it is. Stop trying to find the specific instances that are bad and try to perceive the bigger picture.
That is absurd. I don't need to be told groping is bad. I am saying I don't see it, but since it does happen, I want to figure out how to do something about it.
Not to mention that all these testimonials have examples. You're not asking for more information, you're asking for someone to comb through all the information and line it up for you, which frankly strikes me as something profoundly beneath you; you are more than capable of parsing testimonial information without someone making a list for you.
It's like solving a math problem presented in paragraph form instead of formulaic--break it down.
And I am refusing to provide the list for you because parsing it and reading for it comprehensively will help you understand.
@Roz said:
@Arkandel Honestly, just accept the possibility that maybe there's been stuff that's happened that you haven't noticed -- maybe not the most egregious stuff, as you've said, but stuff -- and just say "Okay, I'll try to keep these possibilities in mind in case there's stuff maybe I haven't noticed." @Coin is right: these articles are already telling you what experiences people are having. I get the sense that it's really frustrating for you to hear about really shitty things and feel like you're not in a position to intervene because you haven't seen them, so you're asking for more and more information because you want to help.
No. Seriously, no. You are reading what you want to read, not what I am typing. That is far more frustrating for me than issues I explicitly came here wishing to discuss.
I have zero issues accepting that this happens, which I mentioned repeatedly. When I say I don't see it happening it's not to discredit the incidents or to shred responsibility but because the fact I don't although they do happen perhaps means I am not looking hard enough, or for the right things, or in the right places. And that I would like to know what the case is and why.
Now, when @Roz says that part of the problem is a loss of agency I can stand behind it; that's fair enough.
I am beginning to regret getting involved in this conversation. I think it's best if I step out of it. Thanks for sharing, all.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Kanye-Qwest said:
@Arkandel
...huh. I don't think anyone is asking you to personally intervene to rescue women from gropers and harassers.It's not about you seeing it in action and preventing it, at ALL, but I find it interesting that your mind goes that way. It's indicative of something important, and that thing is : loss of agency.
You want to be told where and when this type of thing happens, because you want to prevent it. That's noble, but misguided. We don't need white knights. We don't need protectors and heroes. To want to be that person is not helping women - it's trying to help yourself regain your lost agency.
What we ACTUALLY need is a deeper understanding of the pervasive social issues that make this shit commonplace. We need the people in power, the members of the group of people perpetrating this shit - in this case, men, specifically (because they have a much harder time accepting that struggles are real) white men - to accept that their permissiveness of this privilege is absolutely contributing to the problem.
I'm sorry if that's uncomfortable for you. It's understandable, but it sucks, because I think your (specifically you) heart is in the right place. You don't need to be told what to look for, you need to be told that your idea of helping is not actually the help we need.
Okay, see, this is something we can talk about, because this might have come across differently than what you intended.
What I read here:
Men doing nothing and being permissive of these situations is what causes the problem.
Men doing something and being active against it, thus not permitting it, is not a solution to the problem.
So basically, that read:
Men are a constant problem. They're wrong, and there's nothing they can do about it, because by doing something or doing nothing, they're still wrong.
See how that could maybe not come off the way you intended it to come off? @Arkandel is trying to figure out what he can do, and that answer came across as a politely worded "you'll always be a problem."
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@Arkandel said:
@Coin said:
If someone tells you groping is bad, and you see groping, you step up and help the person being groped. That's all it is. Stop trying to find the specific instances that are bad and try to perceive the bigger picture.
That is absurd. I don't need to be told groping is bad. I am saying I don't see it, but since it does happen, I want to figure out how to do something about it.
Of course you don't. I was simply using a common and obvious instance to frame it.
Let me offer a more innocuous, and yet very common example:
If a woman is talking to you and says, "Yeah, it makes me feel pretty uncomfortable when men tell me I should smile more, that I'm prettier when I smile more", then when you see a guy say that to a woman, it's perfectly reasonable for you to look at the guy and say, "She can smile when she feels like it. You're probably not not making her feel like it." Or something to that effect.
I wasn't implying you didn't know groping was wrong--it was just an example, one you used, so I mirrored it.
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@Derp said:
@Kanye-Qwest said:
@Arkandel
...huh. I don't think anyone is asking you to personally intervene to rescue women from gropers and harassers.It's not about you seeing it in action and preventing it, at ALL, but I find it interesting that your mind goes that way. It's indicative of something important, and that thing is : loss of agency.
You want to be told where and when this type of thing happens, because you want to prevent it. That's noble, but misguided. We don't need white knights. We don't need protectors and heroes. To want to be that person is not helping women - it's trying to help yourself regain your lost agency.
What we ACTUALLY need is a deeper understanding of the pervasive social issues that make this shit commonplace. We need the people in power, the members of the group of people perpetrating this shit - in this case, men, specifically (because they have a much harder time accepting that struggles are real) white men - to accept that their permissiveness of this privilege is absolutely contributing to the problem.
I'm sorry if that's uncomfortable for you. It's understandable, but it sucks, because I think your (specifically you) heart is in the right place. You don't need to be told what to look for, you need to be told that your idea of helping is not actually the help we need.
Okay, see, this is something we can talk about, because this might have come across differently than what you intended.
What I read here:
Men doing nothing and being permissive of these situations is what causes the problem.
Men doing something and being active against it, thus not permitting it, is not a solution to the problem.
So basically, that read:
Men are a constant problem. They're wrong, and there's nothing they can do about it, because by doing something or doing nothing, they're still wrong.
See how that could maybe not come off the way you intended it to come off? @Arkandel is trying to figure out what he can do, and that answer came across as a politely worded "you'll always be a problem."
That's not how I read it.
There are two layers (more, really, but we can simplify) to the issue here: the systemic and the active.
The active is "if you see it, do something about it".
The systemic is "this is a problem at the very core of the way our society works, and thus, fixing it takes a much deeper involvement, beyond just helping out when something does down".
The former is going to help the one person you help that one time. The latter will slowly erode the problem until it goes away. It will take years. Decades. Centuries. You will not see the results. That doesn't mean you can't help its beginnings.
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@Derp
Then by all means, let me be as clear as I can.I'm not surprised you are having a hard time with this concept, because it is weighty and fucking DAUNTING. You will never, ever solve the issue of gender based harassment and oppression by stopping it piecemeal, when you see it.
NEVER.
Is it a good thing to do? Absolutely. Will it make a big difference for the female (or trans, gay, minority, whatever) in question? YES. Will it make one fucking difference in preventing it happening somewhere else, to someone else? Sadly, NO.
The only way to fix this - the ONLY way - is to change our society. That's a big task. A really fucking big one. Step 1, for you, is to stop looking for reasons to deny. You need to realize that is what you are doing. You are in a position of privilege, a position of power, just by being who you are. That's great for you - you benefit from it, even if you aren't taking steps to make sure it continues.
But the old saying is true : when righteous men do nothing, evil flourishes. In this case, it's not enough to just be innocent of this shitty behavior yourself. It is - sadly - not enough to try and prevent it if you happen to see it happening to a friend or someone you know. The only way to be 'part of the solution' here is to ACCEPT that because of your position of privilege, other people suffer.
What you need to do is be part of a wave, a rising chorus of voices saying "This isn't ok and I want it to change."
The only way to fix this is to make our society one where it is un-fucking-acceptable for one person to dictate to another. A society where it is NOT FUCKING ACCEPTABLE for men to make decisions for women. About ANYTHING. No telling us what to do with our bodies. No telling us what we should or shouldn't do when it comes to our careers. Our families. Where we walk, and when we do it. What we wear. What we say. What we attempt. No putting us in jail for having miscarriages. No restricting our access to fucking birth control. No implying that women are irrational, or unreasonable, or illogical. No super funny jokes about how if you use a vagina once, you end up paying for it. NO VICTIM SHAMING/BLAMING. You feel me?
Because in a society where it is acceptable (and even in some fucked up views, necessary) for men to make decisions for women? That means women do not have agency. It means women are not whole people in the way that men are whole people. That means there will ALWAYS be that undercurrent of viewing women as sub-people, which will encourage weak, fucked up assholes to victimize them.
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@Misadventure said:
How would one not permit this behavior, yet not white knight for someone? It seems you are saying "leave it to women just be aware". Is that the case?
I find it reasonable that someone who is being harassed can stand up for themselves. I also find it reasonable to make it clear than not just the harrassee finds the behavior distasteful. My behavior doesn't depend on the idea of supporting the underdog, the victim, the helpless, the powerless, it depends on me not wanting to bad behavior enacted.
Or should I stand back, and just be aware?
There's a difference between helping when you see an injustice and walking around looking for injustice to help with. The latter is white knighting. At least, that's my understanding and use of the term.
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@Derp said:
What I read here:
Men doing nothing and being permissive of these situations is what causes the problem.
Men doing something and being active against it, thus not permitting it, is not a solution to the problem.
So basically, that read:
Men are a constant problem. They're wrong, and there's nothing they can do about it, because by doing something or doing nothing, they're still wrong.
That's not an unfair assessment. Let me re-state what I think the activists are getting at:
- People doing nothing and being permissive of these situations is part of the problem.
- People doing something and being active against it does not necessarily solve the problem.
- In context, white men are the class of persons with the greatest power to change the situation so as to minimize the incidences.
Don't think for a second that there aren't women who think "oh, that girl deserved it" or "boys will be boys" or "oh, you, tee hee!"; they exist, and they also aren't helping anything. Also, don't think for a second that every accusation is 100% true; there are people who exaggerate, or who falsely accuse.
But the question is: what can I, a white man, do? And the answer is, as I've stated above.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said:
- In context, white men are the class of persons with the greatest power to change the situation so as to minimize the incidences.
You know, as a white man, I've been told off for involving myself in some other demographics' problems because I was a white man, even if what I was trying to do was understand and/or help, more times than I'm comfortable with.
I'm not shaming anyone, here, but if someone offers to find understanding then telling them to GTFO is not the solution.
This may not be directly related to the conversation at hand, but it is a peeve of mine. It's a little harder that I feel like I'm being discriminated against because of my social class and skin color, which makes the thing ironic, which pisses me off even more because I think, this must be the normal position of the people who I'm trying to understand, so I understand why they don't trust me, but they should trust me because I'm treating them like a fucking human being and arrrrrgh!
Ahhem.
Sorry, carry on.
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edit: It's okay to tell someone to GTFO because it hits too close to home and you're not emotionally prepared to talk to someone about what's wrong with "them" (quotes to indicate the label, not the person), but these people should still recognize that an individual was reaching out to potentially help. Trust doesn't always come easy, but until I become a senator for the state of Ohio, I'm going to be pretty limited as to what I can do. Trust and Understanding go hand in hand.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@ThatOneDude said:
The recent turn in this thread reminded me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GjyBuz2yOk
I don't believe a single word he says either.
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Alright, I can certainly get behind this.
I do think, however, that the ... language used could be better when discussing this situation with white men.
Too often, I get told, rather directly, that I should basically feel like a terrible person for the equivalent of winning the genetic lottery. All of us tend to get lumped into one group, the same as say, blacks or asians. And just like it makes minorities mad to get lumped into one giant supergroup, it makes white men angry too.
In regards to things people actively do to try and enforce racial/gender stratification, I do very few of them. I do have a few traditional beliefs that people tend to fall on either side of the fence on. Raising a hand to a woman is not okay to me, unless you're being threatened with grievous harm by a woman. Maybe not a progressive idea, since it does place women in a different class, but one I think has merit.
In regards to the things that hapen just because I'm a white guy, though, regardless of my actual actions or input, it's really frustrating to be treated like The Enemy, or That Fucking Guy just because I happen to be white. I'm sorry. I didn't get a choice in that matter. For what it's worth, it's not all sunshine and roses on this side, either. But too often, this kind of a conversation turns into "You should feel bad because you're white."
I think that instead of statements like "you are part of the problem", it might be better to use more neutral statements like "the problem exists because this situation exists". Statements like these are especially fodder:
But the old saying is true : when righteous men do nothing, evil flourishes. In this case, it's not enough to just be innocent of this shitty behavior yourself. It is - sadly - not enough to try and prevent it if you happen to see it happening to a friend or someone you know. The only way to be 'part of the solution' here is to ACCEPT that because of your position of privilege, other people suffer.
There is a limited amount of stuff I can do about that. Telling myself that I should feel bad about being me because other people aren't me is not, in my opinion, a good solution. Tell me to support other people. Tell me to use whatever position I have to try and help. Those things, I can do Telling me that because I'm me, someone's life is shitty, and I should be not-okay with this is... maybe functionally identical when it comes to end results and what actions I take, but a world of difference away when it comes to the mentality that you're trying to foster, of cooperation and harmony. Them's almost fightin' words, you feel me?
So I think that maybe it would be wise to take a look at the language we're using in these conversations, and try to find less antagonistic ways of saying what we would like to see happen.
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@Thenomain said:
I'm not shaming anyone, here, but if someone offers to find understanding then telling them to GTFO is not the solution.
You're right. It seems absurd to tell a responding male police officer to not get involved with the rape case he was assigned to.
Still, I'm glad you recognize why some people's initial reactions may be to tell you to go away.
That said, telling people that you will go away at their request but that you will never stop trying to understand their injustice is a kind way of telling them that they need to re-think their position.
I understand your perspective. Sometimes, you have to check your language to see if you're conveying what you want to convey.
Most of the time, when someone says "you are part of the problem," they are likely trying to convey "your attitude/stance/action/inaction is part of the problem." Saying "you are part of the problem" is a shortcut, but it's a devilish one. Any of those sorts of false dichotomies -- "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" -- is the very sort of oppositional, shallow, narrow-minded thinking that fuels the Trump campaign, and, unfortunately, Sanders' campaign.
As has been said, if civil rights were simple or issues related to them were simple, then we would not have this discussion. They are not. And, to be fair, we are entering into an era of human history where humanity has become acutely aware of civil rights, and information has been at its most free. So, we have to tread carefully, lest we find ourselves in some rhetorical or legal trap that prevents us from rationally discussing civil rights policies.
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@Ganymede said:
That said, telling people that you will go away at their request but that you will never stop trying to understand their injustice is a kind way of telling them that they need to re-think their position.
+1. Thanks.
