RL Anger

[spasticgoat]

I included quotes around the word "hero" for a reason. They're often self-appointed class guardians and I see a lot of their class-based ideology spewed on my Facebook feed.

[Ganymede]

@spasticgoat said:

I included quotes around the word "hero" for a reason. They're often self-appointed class guardians and I see a lot of their class-based ideology spewed on my Facebook feed.

Okay, so what you're describing is a working-class asshole, then, that buys into the same shit that upper-class assholes do.

[spasticgoat]

@Ganymede said:

@spasticgoat said:

I included quotes around the word "hero" for a reason. They're often self-appointed class guardians and I see a lot of their class-based ideology spewed on my Facebook feed.

Okay, so what you're describing is a working-class asshole, then, that buys into the same shit that upper-class assholes do.

Pretty much, yes. On each side of the whole economic divide, there's assholes, it's just the blue collar ones I hear more from than most. It's why I put it as a peeve.

[Luna]

Along this line, I hate 'poor' people who don't know what actual 'poor' is. Yes, I know some upper middle class who are disconnected from reality but they're not trying to be mouthpieces for a class they are not actually part of but claim to be part of.

[Ganymede]

@Luna said:

Along this line, I hate 'poor' people who don't know what actual 'poor' is. Yes, I know some upper middle class who are disconnected from reality but they're not trying to be mouthpieces for a class they are not actually part of but claim to be part of.

Poverty defies a single label, so I give people a pass on this issue.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said:

@Luna said:

Along this line, I hate 'poor' people who don't know what actual 'poor' is. Yes, I know some upper middle class who are disconnected from reality but they're not trying to be mouthpieces for a class they are not actually part of but claim to be part of.

Poverty defies a single label, so I give people a pass on this issue.

Until they are talking specifically about a certain type of poverty.

I like to joke that I'm "poor" with my online friends because they live in the U.S. and the currency exchange rate makes my buying some things they buy a lot more expensive. I also didn't have a stable job for years until November 2014, but was still living on my own, so it was a huge struggle.

... but I am not actually poor. I'm not. I have a mother who supports me when I really need it, I have food, clothes, and a bed I don't freeze in at night. Now I have a job I can at least rely on to keep me from requiring support from others.

I'm not poor. And anyone who has the above things and says that they are poor, without being in immediate danger of losing those things (and who are able to apply said things to their kids), is lying. True poverty is a destructive, degrading thing that I wouldn't wishon anyone.

I can't help but think of the latest Last Week Tonight, which had as a main issue "food waste", particularly in the U.S. If you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it.

[Ganymede]

@Coin said:

And anyone who has the above things and says that they are poor, without being in immediate danger of losing those things (and who are able to apply said things to their kids), is lying.

Define "immediate danger."

Do you have health insurance? A single personal injury accident could destroy your life through debt. Do you have auto insurance? A single accident could destroy your life through incapacity to work due to lack of transport. Do you depend on relatives? Their untimely demise could destroy your life. Are all of these things that can and do happen to people, and push them into what "experts" would call "poverty"? Absolutely.

One problem in the United States is that people convince themselves that they are not in poverty. If they came to realize how precarious their situation really is, maybe they would mobilize to create effective and affective change politically and economically. But they do not, because it's easier to convince themselves that they are not shit on, and have not been shitted on, by other classes.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said:

@Coin said:

And anyone who has the above things and says that they are poor, without being in immediate danger of losing those things (and who are able to apply said things to their kids), is lying.

Define "immediate danger."

Do you have health insurance? A single personal injury accident could destroy your life through debt. Do you have auto insurance? A single accident could destroy your life through incapacity to work due to lack of transport. Do you depend on relatives? Their untimely demise could destroy your life. Are all of these things that can and do happen to people, and push them into what "experts" would call "poverty"? Absolutely.

One problem in the United States is that people convince themselves that they are not in poverty. If they came to realize how precarious their situation really is, maybe they would mobilize to create effective and affective change politically and economically. But they do not, because it's easier to convince themselves that they are not shit on, and have not been shitted on, by other classes.

No, I'm talking about situations where you are heading towards there due to financial strain.

"I just lost my job. I can still put food on the table and keep the house warm for a few months, but after that I don't know what we're going to do".

The scenarios you posit are absolutely true, and they can push you immediately to poverty in a way that is devastating, though, yes. It doesn't mean you are poor, but the potential is there, which is often terrifying in its own right. But there is a difference between, "could" and "did", is all I was saying.

[Ganymede]

@Coin said:

The scenarios you posit are absolutely true, and they can push you immediately to poverty in a way that is devastating, though, yes. It doesn't mean you are poor, but the potential is there, which is often terrifying in its own right. But there is a difference between, "could" and "did", is all I was saying.

I understand. What I'm saying is that your definition is too narrow. I mean, not as narrow as the current, federal definition of poverty, but it's still narrow.

What salts me is that some of the problems are not difficult to overcome.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said:

@Coin said:

The scenarios you posit are absolutely true, and they can push you immediately to poverty in a way that is devastating, though, yes. It doesn't mean you are poor, but the potential is there, which is often terrifying in its own right. But there is a difference between, "could" and "did", is all I was saying.

I understand. What I'm saying is that your definition is too narrow. I mean, not as narrow as the current, federal definition of poverty, but it's still narrow.

What salts me is that some of the problems are not difficult to overcome.

Oh, probably. But I was more railing against people who complain they are poor but, you know, are really just not. Quantifying it is hard. But yeah, it's probably narrower than it should be, yeah.

[Hella]

@HelloRaptor Bless your heart. That's adorable.

[Luna]

I'm not poor. I won't even say that for kicks. Even if I had crushing medical debt I wouldn't. Bad credit sucks, but it's liveable. I have been actual poor. Even then, at the time, I didn't consider myself poor. Even though it drove me to do stupid things that were some of the most degrading horrible things (and no, not being a hooker, I actually have some esteem for willing, independent sex workers). I know actual poor. My mother was raised actual poor.

My point with poverty is that we're so concerned with ourselves and our perceptions and how we rank against others that we don't appreciate what we have. People go hungry in this country and that's just obscene. People who don't appreciate what we have often look to the rich and say 'you solve that problem, I'm poor'. Yes, the fewer rich could give a lot. But what if the many gave just a little?

[Ganymede]

@Luna said:

Yes, the fewer rich could give a lot. But what if the many gave just a little?

The numbers suggest that the many have given so much that it hurts.

[Misadventure]

Look up how much each income bracket/population chunk pays into the federal tax system. It gives some interesting insight into the idea that everyone is paying, and the rich are definitely paying a lot more, though perhaps not a true fair share. Though determining a fair share is difficult.

[Corruption]

No lie, I am teetering on the brink of poverty. One medical disaster, one serious accident, one thing going completely wrong with the house, or ever a huge set of vet bills for a cat emergency, and I'd be pretty much done.

We're $300.00 over the poverty line. If we did not make that extra $300 we'd be getting Food Stamps and Medicaid and cash assistance. If I voluntarily divorced my spouse, I could get help and benefits especially for my health issues. What the fuck kind of country introduces choices like that to the equation? I actually had a social worker tell me, with regard to health care, that if I was just sensible about this divorce thing it would all be OK. Yeeeeeah, I've been married for 36 years. I'll just toss my partner aside.

My ACA-Backed health plan costs me $165 a month. That's after the government supplement is applied. Because I could not afford a better plan, the deductible is 5K and it barely pays for anything. But hell, I'm insured! (Yay?)

I need a new computer. Really. My current one is 7 years old and I'm carefully nursing it along. I'm running Vista. I'll likely have to save as carefully as I can to manage this. Unless I just start a GoFundMe and beg helplessly, hoping to raise the money.

Go USA.

[Ganymede]

@Misadventure said:

Look up how much each income bracket/population chunk pays into the federal tax system. It gives some interesting insight into the idea that everyone is paying, and the rich are definitely paying a lot more, though perhaps not a true fair share. Though determining a fair share is difficult.

It may very well be that the poor pay less because they earn less than their exemption, and actually receive income from our tax system in the form of a tax refund.

Tax refunds are silly.

[Tyche]

@Misadventure said:

Though determining a fair share is difficult.

It's easy. Everyone pays the same amount. Sounds fair to me.

[Thenomain]

Here's my $5.

[Ganymede]

@Tyche said:

@Misadventure said:

Though determining a fair share is difficult.

It's easy. Everyone pays the same amount. Sounds fair to me.

The purpose of taxes is to pay for government programs. Those programs do not distribute benefits equally by purpose or design. Fair tax is only fair if you haven't an education or understanding of basic capitalist principles.

[Tyche]

@Thenomain said:

Here's my $5.

Sorry not enough. The Federal government is going to need about $10500 from each of us.
Would you prefer the installment plan or debtors prison?