RL Anger

Derp

@Derp Jesus fucking christ, you're abominable.

And you're deluded.

Sunny

Because selling the thing that they apply for jobs on, get call backs from jobs on, or call the cops with....for the 20 fucking dollars you can get for it (if you are lucky) makes complete sense.

Eta: I mean, did he have leather shoes on? He could eat those instead of asking for help.

surreality

@wahoo If you were to make the case that keeping those hoops in place prevents people from pulling themselves out of debt in the first place, I'd be on board with that. This is also how people elevate themselves out of debt or poverty.

That said, they're there. Having a square is, as it stands, a pretty clear indication of not being in major debt or poverty, unless -- as we do -- it's borrowed. Which it very well may be! Many folks only use theirs intermittently like my mother does, so lending it may be a thing; I'm not going to assume otherwise automatically.

I am going to have some suspicion, regardless. There are people out there pulling cons, but you're right that most folks just don't carry cash these days, either, so if someone can do it, it's a good idea.

With my own experience re: 'can do it'-- minimum balances we can't maintain, having any medical debt disqualifying you, monthly fees, etc. -- I would still side-eye this intensely. (We also still use our 6, not an 11.)

You can absolutely still be unable to afford a place to live while meeting these requirements, especially in the more expensive parts of the world, so that'd be a factor, too. That said, someone who is a street performer or similar? Not even a blink. Hell, y'all please do this.

mietze

To have a square merchant account they do (or used to) require a link to a bank account.

PayPal doesn't and a lot of other money services do not.

Before I started working in the banking industry I had no clue how many people cannot open bank accounts because they get rejected for medical and other debts and collections. There are some special types of accounts that are not as strict as deposit/checking accounts but there are still people who don't qualify.

I've had the same banking account for like 25 years now and it would not ger taken away because I racked up medical debt--if I did though without an account then I'm at risk of being in limbo hell.

Anyway. All that to say is that there are a surprising lot of people who have to operate outside of traditional banks and must rely on paypal/venmo/ect.

There is a lot of fraud as a result, but a lot of it is against the people who get are vulnerable because they rely on those systems to hold funds/pay bills, who get scammed as much as people who have real bank accounts.

surreality

@mietze ^ ALL OF THIS.

In our case, our bank changed hands. We still each have a personal bank account, but we need to open a business one for a square, requiring a minimum balance of like $500 we can never touch and similar. (Most are way higher, too.) Yeah, we just don't have $500 to park somewhere forever and pretend it doesn't exist.

There are also non-trivial monthly fees.

Sunny

I had a smartphone for the brief period I had no home. Brand new top of the line.

It's my work phone. No selling that shit.

Auspice

I changed banks this last year (my old bank was from when I lived in WA; no branches down here). The first couple banks I looked at said nope. The one I got is pretty awesome, but yeah. I have a steady job, okay-ish credit score.... but medical + student debt = banks going naaaaaaaw gtfo.

Derp

@Sunny said in RL Anger:

Because selling the thing that they apply for jobs on, get call backs from jobs on, or call the cops with....for the 20 fucking dollars you can get for it (if you are lucky) makes complete sense.

First off -- twenty bucks for a current iPhone. Haha. Good one.

Second, explain to me what this can do that this $10 tracfone cannot.

Being truly desperate means making some hard decisions, and being willing to confront some uncomfortable truths, and willing to sacrifice and put in the work to lift yourself out of that situation. Being a professional panhandler doesn't do it. You actually have to get smart and use every resource you have available, and that means that sometimes, downgrading that phone so that you can eat that week.

Again, this isn't me just spouting off. I lived this. For over a year. And you can fucking bet that there were times when it was hard, and I had to make some hard choices. But I did it, and I pulled myself up out of that hole, and I started with absolutely nothing. So you're never going to sell me on whatever fucking bleeding heart head-in-the-clouds theories of homelessness people put forward, because those of us who have actually been there know that these people hurt the ones that are actually trying to get themselves out of the goddamn hole.

mietze

Another change I discovered due to my teens working is that many fast food and other grunt force labor jobs (including housekeeping and landscape) try to get (or must offer because their employees cannot get a bank account) employees to accept a company issued reloadable debit card that has their paycheck loaded to it each week in lieu of paper check or direct deposit. And they make direct deposit a hassle.

Again I was totally unaware of this until I had working teens and then work in a bank where people come in with these work issues cards yo get cash advances. And have to pay fees to cash paychecks since they do not have an account or get charged by the card company for the advance.

Ghost

Re: Square

There's very little underwriting involved in Square, and Square takes a lot of risk on transactions, so their requirements are punched up quite a bit. Generally speaking you can't use Square as a business without an EID or Tax ID. There's also Square Cash, but these services generally require some form of bank account to wire the money to after the card is swiped.

It's very unlikely that someone with access to Square plus a compatible cell phone with internet plus a bank account are so needful that they can take their panhandling game to the cyber-networked level. Once bank accounts and tech get involved the upkeep and fees go up.
BEWARE OF CARD SKIMMERS. What you SHOULD be asking yourself is this: "Do you really want a panhandler on the street (who would be difficult to find or contact if a decimal were misplaced in the transaction I.e. 200.00 instead of 20.00) use a device to magnetically scan and record the content on your debit/credit card's magstripe?"

Card transactions are about trust. Trust that the consumer has in the person processing their card transaction to not steal information or misuse the transaction, and trust the merchant has in the consumer that the card isnt a forgery or other form of identity theft.

There is no way in Hell I'd let some rando panhandler on the street swipe my credit/debit card into a device that isn't easily attached to a known business entity that I could easily get the law involved in the event of fraud/ID theft. Card skimmers are devices used to record the data on the magnetic strip with the intention of later selling them or using them in fraudulent online MOTO (Mail Order Telephone Order) transactions where the merchant cannot easily confirm the cardholders identity.

Sunny

@Derp

I have been there, thank you.

Ganymede

@Derp said in RL Anger:

Being truly desperate means making some hard decisions, and being willing to confront some uncomfortable truths, and willing to sacrifice and put in the work to lift yourself out of that situation. Being a professional panhandler doesn't do it.

Why not?

Presume that someone becomes a professional panhandler. So what? It remains an occupation, albeit one that you particularly abhor for reasons. If they are good at preying on the guilt-ridden, so be it; maybe they are Catholic.

Now, let's presume that it is involuntary. So what? Life dealt you a hand that puts you in a better current spot than that other person, but there's no obligation to give anything to anyone. It's yours; hold onto it.

No one needs to give an elaborate explanation as to why they elect not to give freely to others.

That said, I have personal knowledge of professional panhandling in my city. I have seen them shuttling from one location to another, and then settling at a flophouse at the end of the day. Maybe they are using their money to fuel addictions or to feed their family; it does not matter to me.

I don't need to give an elaborate explanation as to why I elect to give or not give.

wahoo

I bow to others' knowledge of Square; I have none. And I think Ghost's card security point is very well made.

But.

The crux of this conversation has been: poor people aren't allowed to have XYZ technology and if they do they don't deserve my help.

And: no.

Derp

@Ganymede

Totally not saying that being a professional panhandler isn't lucrative. It is. I've seen it. Why I was saying is that being a professional panhandler won't get you into a life where being a panhandler is no longer necessary. Professionalizing your skill cements it further, it doesn't break you away from it, and for some reason we keep hearing from certain factions that we all just need to be willing to give to the needy.

I'll give to the needy. But I also know that those people probably aren't actually needy, they're playing you, and that charities get way more bang for their buck.

But we still have to deal with preachy bullshit from the folks who have never experienced this beyond some academic talking point.

surreality

@wahoo I think people -- anyone, literally -- should use whatever tech they can.

This specific piece of tech, however, comes with an indication of a certain level of means and access to stable forms of untouched money/etc. and that's specifically noteworthy.

There may be similar 'questionable' variants available out there that are indistinguishable to the casual observer or are less regulated, and this would be a security concern for me personally.

Tinuviel

@wahoo said in RL Anger:

The crux of this conversation has been: poor people aren't allowed to have XYZ technology and if they do they don't deserve my help.

If you're flashing a brand new smartphone in my face asking for money, I'm definitely less inclined to give it to you over the other dude at the corner with a cardboard sign and no shoes. It's not about the tech itself, it's about the fact that it's expensive.

ETA: Make that a "brand new high end smart phone."

Ghost

@wahoo Agreed. I'm not into the whole "if they can afford a cell phone, they can't have food stamps" type rhetoric. People are people and no one understands a total stranger's life situation enough to be able to make that call. Plenty of people wearing suits are looking for jobs and ending the night at homeless shelters.

VenMo, Cash App, PayPal, Patreon are all safer because the SERVICE encrypts the transaction and the receiver of the money doesn't have access to your card, the magstripe data, nor do they have any right to confidential information on the app's servers. There's lesser risks of fraud or skimming using those services as a means to donate to anyone.

But as someone in the card industry? Cards are like sexual organs: best to not stick them in strange devices of people you don't know or can't track down later if needed. If an ATM card slot looks weird? Don't do it. If a panhandler asks for VenMo? It's relatively safe but they may be able to bug you later or Facebook you if your VenMo account has details they can follow up on, but doesn't involve card swipes.

Sorry to derail about card industry stuff, but 99% of the time it's lawyer stuff and I got to go Ooo! Ooo! I get to be a subject matter expert!

Ganymede

@Derp said in RL Anger:

Totally not saying that being a professional panhandler isn't lucrative. It is. I've seen it. Why I was saying is that being a professional panhandler won't get you into a life where being a panhandler is no longer necessary.

I have to disagree.

I've known way too many folks that have been strippers or prostitutes who ended up cleaning themselves up and flying straight again. It took some time and better choices in life, but I refuse to believe that one profession or another somehow pigeon-holes you. After all, my partner did go from Sith to Jedi, so I have to believe there is some hope for me too.

Derp

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

@Derp said in RL Anger:

Totally not saying that being a professional panhandler isn't lucrative. It is. I've seen it. Why I was saying is that being a professional panhandler won't get you into a life where being a panhandler is no longer necessary.

I have to disagree.

I've known way too many folks that have been strippers or prostitutes who ended up cleaning themselves up and flying straight again. It took some time and better choices in life, but I refuse to believe that one profession or another somehow pigeon-holes you. After all, my partner did go from Sith to Jedi, so I have to believe there is some hope for me too.

...yes, it is possible to better yourself through good choices. That's... still not the point I was making.

You know what? Nevermind. Not worth it.

Tinuviel

This isn't about what people deserve - if it were, there'd be no homeless people. Do people going through a rough period deserve help and support? Absolutely. That is undeniable for any decent person. It's... really about marketing. I am less inclined to give money to people with a brand new, shiny, high-end smart device. Either they don't need the money, or they're terrible at making smart choices with money. Either way, the guy asking for food with one shoe and no socks needs my help more.

@Ganymede I'd also like to vehemently object to the idea that strippers and prostitutes need to "clean themselves up and fly straight." Those you associated might well have done, but let's not tar entire professions with the same brush.