RL Anger

[Misadventure]

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[ThatOneDude]

The recent turn in this thread reminded me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GjyBuz2yOk

[Misadventure]

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[Derp]

@Tyche said:

I don't find the argument that if you don't accept the position of the poster then you are part of the problem.
Just maybe the typical response is rationally skeptical.

@Lithium said:

Even as he tries to deflect, he still belittles the issue at hand by the ever present call for evidence.

You know, I had to go through and re-read this a couple of times before I could come up with the reply that I wanted, just because I couldn't believe that the tone of this conversation had actually gone this way. But that said...

When did asking for evidence become a crime? When did a person become a part of the problem when they say "I have not seen the things that you have seen, even given much experience in the same circles. Please show me something more than just your word that this happened?"

That does not make a person a part of the problem, anymore than a judge asking for evidence is a part of the problem when you get two people in a court of law saying opposite things about each other. The judge has no experience in your affair. He has not seen what you have seen. As a reasonable third party, he requires something more than your word in order to take action -- and the people who are decrying it are calling for action to be taken. This isn't someone saying "this is unfortunate", this is someone saying "this should be stopped", and as such, some presentation of evidence should be expected.

The fact that Tyche's post has six downvotes baffles me. Tyche has a valid point, from his frame of reference -- the only evidence presented of this is people who've said they've been subjected to this (and god knows that nobody on the internet has ever been known to lie, or blow something out of proportion). Given the nature of some of the claims, I don't think that asking for evidence beyond "It happened to me and I'm not lying so you have to believe me" is unreasonable.

"You don't believe me and won't believe me unless I present you with evidence, so you are a part of the problem," is just as ludicrous of a statement as "I have never seen any such thing, so there is no problem." Evidence is your middle ground, evidence is how you are going to change the dominant mindset, evidence is the way you're going to get people to respond to your call for action. Not your word, even if you have a lot of people giving their word, especially not in a niche culture that doesn't get a ton of spotlight anyway -- and certainly not if most of the claims come from the internet.

[Roz]

@Derp Witness testimony is, in fact, evidence in a trial. And multiple witnesses all corroborating the same story is pretty strong evidence.

Are you saying that if a woman you were personally close to came to you and said, "I've gotten groped and harassed at multiple geek gatherings," your response would be, "Okay, prove it?" This isn't a freaking legal trial. If people were being charged with crimes, then yeah, let the court and its requirements for proving beyond a reasonable doubt rule. Do guys just think there's a massive conspiracy women are running to -- what, even? Take away the boobs in their video games? Just have guys notice when someone in their vicinity is being harassed and support her in shutting it down? Just being more aware to the experience of people outside themselves?

No, I don't have evidence of every instance of my daily life. I haven't happened to be recording my whole day to catch the times I've been sexually harassed.

If something shitty happened to you on a regular basis, and happened to the majority of your friends, and you all spoke up to say, "This shitty thing keeps happening," wouldn't you feel fucking shitty to get laughed at and said, "Okay, I know a huge group of you is saying this, but prove it?"

Yeah, it is fucking shitty.

[Derp]

@Roz said:

@Derp Witness testimony is, in fact, evidence in a trial. And multiple witnesses all corroborating the same story is pretty strong evidence.

Are you saying that if a woman you were personally close to came to you and said, "I've gotten groped and harassed at multiple geek gatherings," your response would be, "Okay, prove it?" This isn't a freaking legal trial. If people were being charged with crimes, then yeah, let the court and its requirements for proving beyond a reasonable doubt rule. Do guys just think there's a massive conspiracy women are running to -- what, even? Take away the boobs in their video games? Just have guys notice when someone in their vicinity is being harassed and support her in shutting it down? Just being more aware to the experience of people outside themselves?

No, I don't have evidence of every instance of my daily life. I haven't happened to be recording my whole day to catch the times I've been sexually harassed.

If something shitty happened to you on a regular basis, and happened to the majority of your friends, and you all spoke up to say, "This shitty thing keeps happening," wouldn't you feel fucking shitty to get laughed at and said, "Okay, I know a huge group of you is saying this, but prove it?"

Yeah, it is fucking shitty.

Except as others have mentioned, this doesn't happen to some of us. @Arkandel, for instance, expressed his bafflement at some of these things. No, this has not happened to me. This has not happened to any of my friends. I know multiple girls in gaming circles, and they're all treated respectfully --- well, except for chats and things in FPS games, but that's different ... everyone gets treated like shit in those. That's equal opportunity shitheadedness.

No. My experience of this thing differs greatly from the experiences being expressed. It differs greatly from the experiences of my friends, male and female, who do this. It is so alienated from my conception of gaming groups in general that my first reaction is 'what?' And then, I follow up on that 'what'. I ask my friends. And if their reaction is also 'what', then yes, I express some skepticism.

I'm not saying that I don't think it happens. I'm sure it does, somewhere. I think it should stop. I'm saying that people should stop tearing down the people asking for evidence of these things, because a) you're not helping your cause in doing so -- you're alienating the very people you're asking to take action in the first place and worse, you're setting them up to disbelieve you in the future by creating a negative rapport. And b), their viewpoints are valid too. This doesn't happen everywhere, to everyone, on the massive scale that the internet would have you believe it does. It is not so wholly pervasive that you would have to be a blind drooling monkey to miss it. And if you're going to convince the people that have no experience of this, in any form, either among themselves or their friends, then when those people say 'I'm going to need something more', you should say 'I can respect that', and then work to find it, instead of getting angry that they would dare ask for such a thing in the first place, those insensitive blind bastards.

ETA: And @Roz, as much as you say this isn't a court of law, American culture is an adversarial culture, and has been since the country was founded. Some of the earliest writers on American culture commented on the legalistic mindset of american relations, and how very formal we as a culture are when it comes to things like evidence of wrongdoing.

And remember, the Civil Rights movement was settled in courts too, with notable cases like Brown II, so when people start talking about Social Justice, it's not unreasonable to think in terms of legalities and evidence.

[saosmash]

I think that the fact that every single conversation about this becomes a demand for more evidence that it happens instead of a review of the massive screeds of evidence that it happens is a problem. Ten women should not have to say the same thing before it counts the same as one man saying "I've never seen this happen."

[Apos]

@Derp Let me share something with you that will make you a better person and also probably depress you. Virtually every woman you know has been harassed and to a far greater extent than you realize, or you would not be posting the way you are. The things they are talking about are not the exception to the rule, they aren't wild stories, they are common and they are pervasive. Asking for evidence is well and good, but these claims are no more unlikely than someone saying they drove in rush hour and ran into delays due to traffic. This is particularly awful to do when no such evidence can exist except for actual testimony.

The reason why someone says, 'you are part of the problem', is because talking about terrible shit that happens to you, then running into disbelief about it, isn't exactly fun.

[Misadventure]

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[Coin]

@Derp I'm sorry dude, but you're being pretty dumb right now.

The whole point is that it doesn't matter if your friends are the exception--there is a multitude of people out there who suffer from sexual harrassment and they shouldn't need to prove it to you for you to offer your support and keep an eye out.

If you have never, ever been witness to it (something I doubt, but moving on) then lucky you, but they aren't asking you to stand up and say OH YEAH I TOTALLY SAW THIS. No, they are asking that if you see it, do something about it. They are asking you to not doubt them just because you haven't witnessed it yourself or they don't have evidence; they're just asking for support.

So if you haven't seen it, lucky you. But if you do, act in support of the person being harrassed.

That's it. That's all it takes to be an ally to people who are being harrassed: you see it, you help. Because if you are put in a position where you can actively help, it will also come with the evidence thereof.

Stop worrying so much about whether or not these people are lying and start worrying about whether or not you're too blind to see what they're talking about. One of those things makes you a better person, the other doesn't.

[saosmash]

And when evidence that it happens is presented, to whom? Who is the neutral arbiter that decides the weight of this evidence?

If you're going to use the adversarial system as a metaphor for how our culture processes information, who are you saying is the judge of whether these women are lying about what has happened to them? Consistently? Pervasively? Over the course of time? What is this nebulous 'internet' that would have me believe things that aren't true? Is it, you know ... women in other places than me who nevertheless have had similar experiences with men in geek circles being douchebags?

Not all men are harassers. Not all harassment is blatant and obvious. Not all women recognize when they are being harassed.

Not all geek circles are automatically and immediately terrible. Why, I am at a comic convention right now, and spent a whole day yesterday wandering around by myself and had no negative experiences whatsoever with any of the men (or women) I randomly talked to or was seated near. And yet, I do not take this day of nothing bad happening to me as evidence that nothing bad happened to anyone else ever.

[Ganymede]

@Derp said:

And remember, the Civil Rights movement was settled in courts too, with notable cases like Brown II, so when people start talking about Social Justice, it's not unreasonable to think in terms of legalities and evidence.

The Civil Rights movement wasn't settled by Brown v. Board of Education. Not even close. It still isn't settled.

The issue of whether or not black Americans cannot be excluded from public education institutions was determined by that decision, but, as has been said, a decision is only as good as its efforts to comply with it. Which is to say that, in the wake of Brown, there were few efforts in the southern states to comply with the decision.

At a time when legislatures are passing laws calculated to permit gender identity and sexual orientation discrimination, it is really ignorant to say that the Civil Rights movement has been settled.

[Arkandel]

@Derp In this case you don't know for example that there

I must concur that it's counter-productive to tell people they are part of the problem while they're actively trying to learn more about that problem, and simply state they haven't personally witnessed it happen to others.

My interest here is to figure out why that is. I completely exclude the possibility that it's all a big exaggerated lie - there are too many testimonials, not everyone is some sort of attention-starved drama queen. So that's done.

The only other possibilities I can see are these:

• harassment/molestation doesn't happen where I usually play. I'm a middle-aged white guy, maybe I just pick safe friendly venues for my gaming. However someone in this thread already mentioned they are doing their research ahead of time trying to assure the same thing, so maybe that's not a big factor.

• it doesn't happen where I am under fear of retribution. Maybe predators like to isolate their targets, which does make sense. But again there have been testimonials here that it does take place out in the open sometimes... still I'd like to keep this possibility open.

• I don't notice it when it happens either thinking it's not a big deal or not wanting the social negative effects of standing up for others. This... is hard to fathom - perhaps it's possible to not pay much attention to some minor forms of flirting to understand it's unwanted but there's no goddamn way someone would make a comment as crude as "if you can bleed you can breed" under any circumstances, any at all, and not make me pissed off. But as for negative effects... what are those? I have no friends who wouldn't back me up on that (probably by design), the police would certainly do as well if it came to it, etc.

This is obviously an emotionally charged issue and a sensitive one to discuss. So help me - maybe others in my shoes - see how we can help. Assume we want to help and that we believe this is a real problem, but we can't do something about it unless we can spot its signs.

The where, how, what to look for, that's what I wanted going into this parts of the thread.

But please don't tell me I'm part of the problem. Because that's part of the problem. I will be the moment I participate or condone this kind of behavior, but not before.

[Kanye Qwest]

@saosmash said:

I think that the fact that every single conversation about this becomes a demand for more evidence that it happens instead of a review of the massive screeds of evidence that it happens is a problem. Ten women should not have to say the same thing before it counts the same as one man saying "I've never seen this happen."

I wish I could upvote this ten more times, so that my opinion of it as a right statement would equal one MRA in disguise. I mean. Man-pinion.

[Coin]

@Arkandel said:

@Derp In this case you don't know for example that there

I must concur that it's counter-productive to tell people they are part of the problem while they're actively trying to learn more about that problem, and simply state they haven't personally witnessed it happen to others.

My interest here is to figure out why that is. I completely exclude the possibility that it's all a big exaggerated lie - there are too many testimonials, not everyone is some sort of attention-starved drama queen. So that's done.

The only other possibilities I can see are these:

• harassment/molestation doesn't happen where I usually play. I'm a middle-aged white guy, maybe I just pick safe friendly venues for my gaming. However someone in this thread already mentioned they are doing their research ahead of time trying to assure the same thing, so maybe that's not a big factor.

• it doesn't happen where I am under fear of retribution. Maybe predators like to isolate their targets, which does make sense. But again there have been testimonials here that it does take place out in the open sometimes... still I'd like to keep this possibility open.

• I don't notice it when it happens either thinking it's not a big deal or not wanting the social negative effects of standing up for others. This... is hard to fathom - perhaps it's possible to not pay much attention to some minor forms of flirting to understand it's unwanted but there's no goddamn way someone would make a comment as crude as "if you can bleed you can breed" under any circumstances, any at all, and not make me pissed off. But as for negative effects... what are those? I have no friends who wouldn't back me up on that (probably by design), the police would certainly do as well if it came to it, etc.

This is obviously an emotionally charged issue and a sensitive one to discuss. So help me - maybe others in my shoes - see how we can help. Assume we want to help and that we believe this is a real problem, but we can't do something about it unless we can spot its signs.

The where, how, what to look for, that's what I wanted going into this parts of the thread.

But please don't tell me I'm part of the problem. Because that's part of the problem. I will be the moment I participate or condone this kind of behavior, but not before.

To be fair, dude, I learned what to look for by listening to women tell their stories and taking them as truth. So if a woman says "this dude did [thing] and it made me feel super uncomfortable and unsafe", then I will notice that thing and identify it as something potentially (or definitively) harmful.

You don't need a bullet point list of "things that are harrassment". Just listen to the people who were harrassed and spoke up.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said:

This is obviously an emotionally charged issue and a sensitive one to discuss. So help me - maybe others in my shoes - see how we can help.

Here's where to start -- admitting your ignorance.

Next, listen to the testimonial, and presume the truth. There's no need to go out of the way to determine the truth if the goal of the testimonial is to beg for improvement, rather than punish someone. Work with the presumptions of truth to find a policy that balances the need of protecting victims and protecting innocents.

Talking about fixing a potential problem is always helpful, especially of the potential problem becomes a real one.

Just be open to listening. My partner never wants my solutions, but she sure as hell likes to talk about her problems.

[Arkandel]

@Coin said:

To be fair, dude, I learned what to look for by listening to women tell their stories and taking them as truth. So if a woman says "this dude did [thing] and it made me feel super uncomfortable and unsafe", then I will notice that thing and identify it as something potentially (or definitively) harmful.

You don't need a bullet point list of "things that are harrassment". Just listen to the people who were harrassed and spoke up.

So what is the [thing]?

I've been reading this thread and I'm not disputing anything. For instance when people say they've been groped I believe them because, among other reasons, I can't afford not to. But I can't stop such groping unless I can see it happen, so I need to know the how, where, when of it.

I'd like to think being able to step up and tell a guy who physically molests a woman to keep his damn hands to himself will do more than offer a sympathetic ear afterwards. It doesn't mean I won't do both but the former holds more value.

So yes, I do need a bullet point list. I need more information.

[Misadventure]

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[Coin]

@Arkandel said:

@Coin said:

To be fair, dude, I learned what to look for by listening to women tell their stories and taking them as truth. So if a woman says "this dude did [thing] and it made me feel super uncomfortable and unsafe", then I will notice that thing and identify it as something potentially (or definitively) harmful.

You don't need a bullet point list of "things that are harrassment". Just listen to the people who were harrassed and spoke up.

So what is the [thing]?

I've been reading this thread and I'm not disputing anything. For instance when people say they've been groped I believe them because, among other reasons, I can't afford not to. But I can't stop such groping unless I can see it happen, so I need to know the how, where, when of it.

I'd like to think being able to step up and tell a guy who physically molests a woman to keep his damn hands to himself will do more than offer a sympathetic ear afterwards. It doesn't mean I won't do both but the former holds more value.

So yes, I do need a bullet point list. I need more information.

No, no you don't. You're answering your own questions.

If someone tells you groping is bad, and you see groping, you step up and help the person being groped. That's all it is. Stop trying to find the specific instances that are bad and try to perceive the bigger picture.

Not to mention that all these testimonials have examples. You're not asking for more information, you're asking for someone to comb through all the information and line it up for you, which frankly strikes me as something profoundly beneath you; you are more than capable of parsing testimonial information without someone making a list for you.

It's like solving a math problem presented in paragraph form instead of formulaic--break it down.

And I am refusing to provide the list for you because parsing it and reading for it comprehensively will help you understand.

[Derp]

@Coin said:

If you have never, ever been witness to it (something I doubt, but moving on) then lucky you, but they aren't asking you to stand up and say OH YEAH I TOTALLY SAW THIS. No, they are asking that if you see it, do something about it. They are asking you to not doubt them just because you haven't witnessed it yourself or they don't have evidence; they're just asking for support.

Well, that at least I can get behind. That's easy enough. I thought that was just common sense, standing up for people who have people being dicks to them.

My main beef is that a lot of the tone of these things seems to be calling for something more proactive than reactive. The people who are reactive to such things are called out just as much for being part of the problem for not being proactive and, you know, doing something before they've seen anything to do something about.

It baffles me. But if all anyone is asking for is for me to say 'Dude, not cool, knock it the fuck off' when someone is being a dick to a girl? I mean, sure, I'm your guy. That so rarely happens in my gaming groups that I don't know how often it'll come up, but I'll put on that hat, for sure. I would do that without anyone asking, regardless of a person's gender, because ... common decency?

@Apos - Alright, so I'm willing to step back and consider your statements. I fully believe that many women I know have been treated in dickish ways throughout their lives. I've at least seen that outside of gaming groups enough to believe that people being shitty is a thing. But also consider this, as a mental exercise -- A person exists in the world, somewhere, that has seen no evidence of that in the gaming world. They've heard about these things, and asked their friends, both male and female, in the gaming world if this is a thing that happens, and those people say 'no, I have never had that happen'. Both based on their own perceptions and the experiences of those they have to talk to about it, they believe that this has not happened to the people they know. And then someone comes along and says 'This has happened to every woman you know to an extent greater than you realize' -- do you really think that the statement alone is going to make them believe something that their friends and own experiences contradict? Do you see how that could be seen as, at best, incorrect, and at worst somewhat manipulative in order to elicit an action/response in favor of your claim? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. You've essentially both called that person wrong, and called that person's circle of contacts for information liars. It's an easy way to generate hostility.

Just, you know, consider both sides. I know that we could talk in circles at each other for hours and hours, but instead -- I consider your side, you consider mine, and we agree to keep them in mind in the future?