A General Apology from the Guy Who Was Ashur
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@HelloRaptor said:
One of my many rules of thumb is that if I ever need to 'keep logs of everything' what I really "need" to do is stop playing that game.
The fuck? What kind of arcane programs are you bitches using to MUSH with? It is trivially easy to set up automatic logging. It takes all of a minute, if by a minute I include the rest of setting up a new MUSH world in your client.
You actually thought my problem with that was technical?
That I didn't know how to autolog everything? Tsk!- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@HelloRaptor said:
For the record, for your facepalming pleasure @Groth, the primary incident I was referring to above where I later found out I'd been played was because I got logs from everyone concerned (where multiple players were accusing one other player) and ruled based on what appeared to be the accused's log being doctored. It turned out the others involved had all doctored theirs in the same way to make it look like he was up to some shady shit so he'd get banned. People are fucking assholes.
I have no words for that level of terrible.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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This is why every emit needs a unique encrypted stamp.
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@Arkandel said:
@HelloRaptor said:
One of my many rules of thumb is that if I ever need to 'keep logs of everything' what I really "need" to do is stop playing that game.
The fuck? What kind of arcane programs are you bitches using to MUSH with? It is trivially easy to set up automatic logging. It takes all of a minute, if by a minute I include the rest of setting up a new MUSH world in your client.
You actually thought my problem with that was technical?
That I didn't know how to autolog everything? Tsk!A bit of hyperbole to make the point. Setting up autologging requires no more effort than flipping the lock on your door when you leave the house. Doing so doesn't necessarily constitute any degree of paranoia, but it's something that requires functionally no real effort and might potentially be useful. Saying that the day you're so paranoid you're locking your door is the day you're looking for a new place to live is likewise a pretty weird sentiment.
Not too long ago I was asked if I had a copy of a news file I wrote for mage years ago, because they remembered it'd been funny but to the point they wanted to make. Took me about five minutes to find a search term, but I was able to pull it up and pass it along. Nothing to do with paranoia, it was just useful to have an archive of all the things ever. And again, it costs a trivial amount of space, and my mushclient is installed in a folder that syncs across computers so even if I crash I don't lose everything. I guess if my house burned down with my desktops and laptop in it, but then I'd have bigger problems than a lack of logs.
If people don't want to log shit, more power to them, but every time this comes up people act like it requires some degree of technical skill to set up or as if doing so would be an act of paranoia, and neither is really the case unless you're really, really technically inept or already paranoid.
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@Groth said:
@HelloRaptor said:
For the record, for your facepalming pleasure @Groth, the primary incident I was referring to above where I later found out I'd been played was because I got logs from everyone concerned (where multiple players were accusing one other player) and ruled based on what appeared to be the accused's log being doctored. It turned out the others involved had all doctored theirs in the same way to make it look like he was up to some shady shit so he'd get banned. People are fucking assholes.
I have no words for that level of terrible.
I do. It's 'This is why I think a clean slate for absolutely everyone is not always the best policy.', but I always get voted down when new games start.
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@HelloRaptor I'll freely admit I have not used an auto logger in YEARS. Not because of a technical deficiency, not because I think it shows paranoid tendencies... but simply because I don't care enough about it to spend even 30 seconds setting one up. Its just not that important to me. Most of the people I play with have long since realized that if they want a log of a scene with one of my characters, they either need to log it themselves or ask me to log for them if they can't for whatever reason. So... you're right. At least some of us don't log for the simple reason of we just don't care enough TO log. Its bitten me on the ass a few times, but not in any way that actually impacted me enough to be willing to change my lack of give a fuck.
Also... total agreement on the last comment. If you know there's a guy down the street that takes his rabid dog with him wherever he goes, and that dog always ends up biting someone wherever he goes... stop inviting the guy down the street to your parties.
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@Miss-Demeanor said:
Also... total agreement on the last comment. If you know there's a guy down the street that takes his rabid dog with him wherever he goes, and that dog always ends up biting someone wherever he goes... stop inviting the guy down the street to your parties.
Especially if the dog is named after an arachnid.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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I maximized my laziness when it comes to logging. Since I still use mushclient. I start a world. I set up the logger with the auto-date thing. If I get alts, each alt gets their own world, i spend half a second renaming world and changing a name on the logger. Ta-da, done.
Now, to be clear, the one world for every log in started not out of paranoia for logging, but for trigger purposes when I was staffing. Certain channels I wanted to pop out at me harder, certain things had a sound trigger. Found out the hard way you don't want all your alts like that. So started customizing them. Pull out the triggers I don't need, or edit them to what I need for the PC.
Now I like the autologging for when I go "I know I've met them IC... and we did stuff. But there's no log on the wiki." Sort through and read, or just wing it. Whatever.
But yeah setting up the logging is so damn easy regardless.
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@Coin said:
@Miss-Demeanor said:
Also... total agreement on the last comment. If you know there's a guy down the street that takes his rabid dog with him wherever he goes, and that dog always ends up biting someone wherever he goes... stop inviting the guy down the street to your parties.
Especially if the dog is named after an arachnid.
At this point I don't care WHICH person it is, God knows there's been plenty Ultimate Evil's in the hobby that you could randomly draw one from a hat and get gasps of horror, it's just sound judgment. Don't let a rabid dog into your party. You'll eventually find that all the people you really want at the party won't come because there's a fucking rabid dog in the house that will bite them.
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@HelloRaptor said:
If people don't want to log shit, more power to them, but every time this comes up people act like it requires some degree of technical skill to set up or as if doing so would be an act of paranoia, and neither is really the case unless you're really, really technically inept or already paranoid.
It's not that I don't want to log stuff (I do routinely for wiki posts, after all). What I absolutely don't want though is to have to because of OOC reasons and drama. Hell no, never again.
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Reverse thinking for me. Logs are fine to have, I prefer that they be easy to set up then you completely forget about them. IF you have drama hey there you go, you have a record of what happened as far as you saw at the time.
I am also fine with channels being logged, they are a public means of communication.
This can't account for all the other ways players communicate, commiserate and conspire, so you have to be ready for organized deception. Sadly, the main drama, incompatible play and/or communication styles, will be in logs and you'll get to see a lot of them.
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@HelloRaptor said:
Not too long ago I was asked if I had a copy of a news file I wrote for mage years ago, because they remembered it'd been funny but to the point they wanted to make. Took me about five minutes to find a search term, but I was able to pull it up and pass it along. Nothing to do with paranoia, it was just useful to have an archive of all the things ever.
This is actually the only use my own logs have been put for so far. It's especially useful when you or someone else accidentally destroy a characters sheet and you can find the previous version somewhere in your logs. I'm not going to say how many times this happened but it was more then one <.<
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I have no sense to organize logs this way. I still think it's kind of creepy, but I used to be one of the people who would argle-bargle about anyone who did so, but nowadays I don't care as long as some staffer doesn't come along and require it. As so many people have said, they can be faked, but in my too-long career I've had less than a handfull of staffers demand logs (or it didn't happen). I think it's fair to say that all of them were shitty staffers, though one of them apologized for it much later so it's water under the bridge now.
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I don't really see logging or not logging as a big deal. I do not but then I never got in the habit of it, lots i rp with do.
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I auto-log because after everything during the last few years my memory sucks. I also have to take notes on things too
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@Usekh said:
I auto-log because after everything during the last few years my memory sucks. I also have to take notes on things too
A++ would quote again.
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I don't think logs are valuable as far as reporting bad incidents of behavior. Too easily doctored (I too have seen it go both ways, both staffside and playerside). I am a big fan if there's been some huge violation of policy or behavior standard, to let staff know about it. Not because I expect anyone to be banned outright from their offense towards poor me, but because an explanation of what happened may help staff establish if there's a concerning pattern of behavior from a variety of sources (not just one tight knit group).
I always forget to log, unless I'm prompted to, unless I'm running something. In any case, if something is neat enough to keep, I don't keep it in raw form (I edit all the ooc and channel crap and me +sheeting myself every 10 minutes, not sure why I do that). I do often kick myself for that later though, I wish I still had descs of rooms/outfits/PCs, ect sometimes.
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I don't think logs are valuable as far as reporting bad incidents of behavior. Too easily doctored (I too have seen it go both ways, both staffside and playerside).
I don't really think that first part is necessarily true, even if the second is true enough.
If Player A comes to me and says, "Hey, Player B was being incredibly abusive on the channels earlier." and I ask "How so?" and they send me a log, it at least gives me something concrete to go to Player B and ask "So, this came to my attention earlier. Is it missing any context, did you say all this, etc?"
If Player B says it's all bullshit and they said nothing of the sort, then I'm not really any worse off than I was originally, with a he said she said (or any combination of pronouns you like). More often than not, though, what happens is that Player B says something along the lines of "Yeah, so what?" or gives context, or whatever.
There are few things more aggravating as a player than a staffer to come to me with a 'You know what you did.', when I have no idea what I did, or what they were even talking about. Logs shouldn't be considered any kind of ultimate, irrefutable proof, but to say they aren't a potentially valuable resource isn't really true.
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I mean there are some benefits to having logs (other than to post roleplay on the wiki of course) and that's to convey a more or less objective context rather than an interpretation. Two people can look at the same channel chat and see different amounts of rudeness or impropriety after all.
But otherwise the practice of submitting them in butthurt situations has dubious benefits at best. For starters if they are expected then their absence becomes an unfeasible requirement for complaints when it shouldn't, and a way for staff to fence-sit when they perhaps shouldn't be.
Then again bad staff will usually find a way to be bad either way.
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Also, even when there are logs pretty clearly showing one thing was said, and another thing was done? It's all dependent on a non-corrupt staff to care, which, of course, doesn't always happen.
