Previously Mutants & Masterminds MUX, now a Question! DUN DUN DUN!

Coin

@Coin I don't think having consistency is a horrible thing at all. I think once agame goes live, it should create it's own history and run with it. Even if you are basing it on established IP once your players are dictating things, and your staff are running things, you are automatically in a land of 'alternate reality' so trying to remain ultra faithful to the IP were nothing ever changes is... silly.

It's sort of why I dislike games set in the middle of a series of movies or books, because then when a new book comes out, things are going to change, and your mush will have to change with it and it's like nothing the players did can really /matter/.

Which is part of why I was going with a wholly original world for this project, that is now retired indefinitely.

I'm not sure why you singled me out for a reply! I agree.

Cirno

@Lithium said:

I have enough time to run something again the hobby might no longer really exist.

It's going to take you 40 years to have time for this again?

or

The hobby still 'really exists'?

Pick one.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to disprove that the number of people MU*ing has not markedly decreased from 1990's levels to the current era in 2016.

I will gladly eat my words, braised, with Hollandaise sauce, if this is wrong; I am not issuing a declaration set in stone, nor am I Professor Cirno with a PH.D. and a thesis entitled "Pretendy Funtime Games And How They Grew".

I am not putting words in your mouth, but it seems as though you may think that if the population of people MU* ing decreases further, through lack of interest, death, loss of the utilities or financial clout to support a hobby which requires a house, power, lighting, a computer, or at the very least a smartphone and a power socket*, if you're going to MU* on the street, you will then be able to write off the hobby as "not really existing".

You could say that right now, if you wanted to, given the current climate of player attrition and shrinkage. Granted, you would encounter pushback from others, but the Kubler-Ross model of the five states of grief lists Denial right there in the set, so the players who deny your supposition are to be expected. You could argue that they are exploring these states of grief as they grieve for a hobby which has slowly begun to cease existing, in a long, drawn-out, persistent vegetative state coma-victim manner, supported through artificial means.

And you would be right, in a certain sense. People still reenact Medieval Warfare, so, technically, you can still say that Knights fight each other in plate armor, but you could also truthfully say that the Age of Chivalry and Knight-Fights has decisively come to an end, and that it does not exist.

However, I would not hedge my bets on MU*ing ceasing to exist in the next decade, or even the decade after that, or the decade following that one. These absurd little games survived two decades already, and are still surviving, with relevant, up to date games, such as My Little Pony.

[* ] @Thenomain and I were discussing why more black people did not MU* on the old boards, and he said something that is important to consider - most MU* ers are financially secure and either have a good chunk of money and a steady, well-paying job, or are at least financially well-off through whatever methods they have available - friends, family, the Government Dole - that they can afford the equipment and the environment conductive to MU* ing - namely, the things mentioned here. He suggested something to the effect that since less black people can afford these things, less can actually MU*.

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

Coin

@Cirno said:

[* ] @Thenomain and I were discussing why more black people did not MU* on the old boards, and he said something that is important to consider - most MU* ers are financially secure and either have a good chunk of money and a steady, well-paying job, or are at least financially well-off through whatever methods they have available - friends, family, the Government Dole - that they can afford the equipment and the environment conductive to MU* ing - namely, the things mentioned here. He suggested something to the effect that since less black people can afford these things, less can actually MU*.

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

I suspect there's also just less black people who roleplay tabletop, too, for the same reasons--roleplaying books have always been notoriously expensive. Keep in mind that tradition and generational inertia helps: if your parents are geeks and gamers and had access to it, it's far more likely you will be, too.

The monetary thing falls apart a little bit when you take into account demographic numbers for video game players (who require even better PCs than MUers, or even consoles, and expensive games). I don't actually have any numbers and it's possible that the ratio remains the same between white and black video game players--but I doubt it (with absolutely no fundament by my own gut).

Cirno

@Coin said:

@Cirno said:

[* ] @Thenomain and I were discussing why more black people did not MU* on the old boards, and he said something that is important to consider - most MU* ers are financially secure and either have a good chunk of money and a steady, well-paying job, or are at least financially well-off through whatever methods they have available - friends, family, the Government Dole - that they can afford the equipment and the environment conductive to MU* ing - namely, the things mentioned here. He suggested something to the effect that since less black people can afford these things, less can actually MU*.

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

I suspect there's also just less black people who roleplay tabletop, too, for the same reasons--roleplaying books have always been notoriously expensive. Keep in mind that tradition and generational inertia helps: if your parents are geeks and gamers and had access to it, it's far more likely you will be, too.

The monetary thing falls apart a little bit when you take into account demographic numbers for video game players (who require even better PCs than MUers, or even consoles, and expensive games). I don't actually have any numbers and it's possible that the ratio remains the same between white and black video game players--but I doubt it (with absolutely no fundament by my own gut).

Precisely. If anything, more people should be MU* ing now - especially since ironically shitty, low-res, retro games called 'Indie Games' are popular.

Visual Novels, which are basically glorified text adventure games with preset input, are hugely popular in Japan. I think that one of the ways MU *ing could update itself for 2016+ is by adopting a format similar to visual novels - current-gen style GUIs, more pictures, more animations, more shiny, sparkly stuff to attract the Web 2.0, FaceTwitter Mashable Le Reddit generation, while hingeing upon the basic premise of reading words on a screen. Furcadia is kind of like this.

Ghost

@Coin said:

@Cirno said:

[* ] @Thenomain and I were discussing why more black people did not MU* on the old boards, and he said something that is important to consider - most MU* ers are financially secure and either have a good chunk of money and a steady, well-paying job, or are at least financially well-off through whatever methods they have available - friends, family, the Government Dole - that they can afford the equipment and the environment conductive to MU* ing - namely, the things mentioned here. He suggested something to the effect that since less black people can afford these things, less can actually MU*.

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

I suspect there's also just less black people who roleplay tabletop, too, for the same reasons--roleplaying books have always been notoriously expensive. Keep in mind that tradition and generational inertia helps: if your parents are geeks and gamers and had access to it, it's far more likely you will be, too.

The monetary thing falls apart a little bit when you take into account demographic numbers for video game players (who require even better PCs than MUers, or even consoles, and expensive games). I don't actually have any numbers and it's possible that the ratio remains the same between white and black video game players--but I doubt it (with absolutely no fundament by my own gut).

I used to know a black musher. We called him The Unicorn.

If I had to take a stab at why you don't see many black mushers, it's for the same reason you don't see a lot of black RPG players or metal fans. There's this thing in American black culture where black people give each other shit for not being black, or supporting black culture enough. I've talked to plenty of black people (SURPRISE! I AM NOT BLACK!) who've told me stories about getting made fun of, or the pressure received, for liking rock more than R&B. There is definitely an element of belief in the subculture that some things are black things and some things are white things.

And then, on some fabled dark and stormy afternoons, white people like me introduce their shadowy bruthaz to Killswitch Engage and D&D and it opens a whole new world of imagination...

...I love my black brothers and sisters who RP. I wish more did it. It's like adding a girl, or a gay person, or a foreigner to your gaming group. Fresh perspectives are awesome.

Cirno

@Ghost said:

@Coin said:

@Cirno said:

[* ] @Thenomain and I were discussing why more black people did not MU* on the old boards, and he said something that is important to consider - most MU* ers are financially secure and either have a good chunk of money and a steady, well-paying job, or are at least financially well-off through whatever methods they have available - friends, family, the Government Dole - that they can afford the equipment and the environment conductive to MU* ing - namely, the things mentioned here. He suggested something to the effect that since less black people can afford these things, less can actually MU*.

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

I suspect there's also just less black people who roleplay tabletop, too, for the same reasons--roleplaying books have always been notoriously expensive. Keep in mind that tradition and generational inertia helps: if your parents are geeks and gamers and had access to it, it's far more likely you will be, too.

The monetary thing falls apart a little bit when you take into account demographic numbers for video game players (who require even better PCs than MUers, or even consoles, and expensive games). I don't actually have any numbers and it's possible that the ratio remains the same between white and black video game players--but I doubt it (with absolutely no fundament by my own gut).

I used to know a black musher. We called him The Unicorn.

If I had to take a stab at why you don't see many black mushers, it's for the same reason you don't see a lot of black RPG players or metal fans. There's this thing in American black culture where black people give each other shit for not being black, or supporting black culture enough. I've talked to plenty of black people (SURPRISE! I AM NOT BLACK!) who've told me stories about getting made fun of, or the pressure received, for liking rock more than R&B. There is definitely an element of belief in the subculture that some things are black things and some things are white things.

And then, on some fabled dark and stormy afternoons, white people like me introduce their shadowy bruthaz to Killswitch Engage and D&D and it opens a whole new world of imagination...

...I love my black brothers and sisters who RP. I wish more did it. It's like adding a girl, or a gay person, or a foreigner to your gaming group. Fresh perspectives are awesome.

There are a decent amount of black mushers on this very same forum. Some of us have even made, or will make, games.

Arkandel

@Cirno said:

There are a decent amount of black mushers on this very same forum. Some of us have even made, or will make, games.

Wait, you're black?

Coin

@Arkandel said:

@Cirno said:

There are a decent amount of black mushers on this very same forum. Some of us have even made, or will make, games.

Wait, you're black?

I'm not sure if you're trolling the notorious troll or just kind of don't pay att--wait, no, you just don't pay attention. >.>

Ghost

@Cirno No shit? I'm not being sarcastic here, but the sheer number of nonBlack characters (not that anyone actively discloses their OOC skin color) have always led me to believe that the ratio of black-to-white mushers is pretty much like the ratio of black-to-white NHL players. Something like 1:95

Arkandel

@Coin said:

@Arkandel said:

@Cirno said:

There are a decent amount of black mushers on this very same forum. Some of us have even made, or will make, games.

Wait, you're black?

I'm not sure if you're trolling the notorious troll or just kind of don't pay att--wait, no, you just don't pay attention. >.>

... In retrospect I'm not sure which of the two would appear more likely to any casual observer who knows me. So, I guess, fair enough!

But give Cirno some credit here.

tragedyjones

I am involved in a lot of nerdy hobbies, and I have noticed that while not a lot of black people seem to do RPGs, collectible card games are much more racially broad.

Coin

@tragedyjones said:

I am involved in a lot of nerdy hobbies, and I have noticed that while not a lot of black people seem to do RPGs, collectible card games are much more racially broad.

There is an easily made correlation with traditional card playing (e.g. poker) and traditional card collecting (e.g. baseball cards) that makes explaining a collectible card game exponentially easier than explaining roleplaying.

tragedyjones

@Coin said:

@tragedyjones said:

I am involved in a lot of nerdy hobbies, and I have noticed that while not a lot of black people seem to do RPGs, collectible card games are much more racially broad.

There is an easily made correlation with traditional card playing (e.g. poker) and traditional card collecting (e.g. baseball cards) that makes explaining a collectible card game exponentially easier than explaining roleplaying.
Also, they have entire cartoon franchises for advertisement. Lonely virgins of all races can play!

Apos

@Cirno said:

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

I don't think it's that, not when you look at tens of millions of people playing MOBAs and MMORPGs, it's hard to look at it from a scarcity standpoint. I think MUSHes offer something unique that's pretty hard to explain. If you google 'text based role playing games', I flipped through a few pages and saw a few MUDs and a -lot- of browser games that are kind of MUD like, but nothing like what most MUSHers enjoy. It's pretty easy for people that have never played an rpg at all before to grasp playing a dude on a MUD and running around killing things in a world. I think it's a lot harder to get across how a collaborative storytelling narrative game works, and I'd be curious what people's elevator pitches of a MUSH are like to people that have never played any form of RPG before.

Coin

@Apos said:

@Cirno said:

This raises interesting questions - is MU* ing a gentrified, expensive hobby out of reach to the poor? Could that be part of the reason why the population of MU* players is low in general? And why is this, since computers have sharply decreased in price? One can acquire a cheap tablet or netbook for 50$ or so.

I don't think it's that, not when you look at tens of millions of people playing MOBAs and MMORPGs, it's hard to look at it from a scarcity standpoint. I think MUSHes offer something unique that's pretty hard to explain. If you google 'text based role playing games', I flipped through a few pages and saw a few MUDs and a -lot- of browser games that are kind of MUD like, but nothing like what most MUSHers enjoy. It's pretty easy for people that have never played an rpg at all before to grasp playing a dude on a MUD and running around killing things in a world. I think it's a lot harder to get across how a collaborative storytelling narrative game works, and I'd be curious what people's elevator pitches of a MUSH are like to people that have never played any form of RPG before.

It probably involved compàrisons to joint storytelling and a lot of theater analogies.

Arkandel

It depends on the crowd for me.

If it's non-gamers then RPGs are "a kind of board game" and MU* are "a game I play online". No need to try to explain anything further usually for the latter, they won't care.

If it's a gamer then RPGs are "an MMO but played in real life on a table with pen and paper" and MU* are "a text-only MMO".

Once I figured out how interested they are (I don't think it's ever come to this step) I can go into greater detail.

Ghost

MU* can be done with a shitty laptop/desktop and uses freeware. So I don't think the expensive factor would be much of an issue, because we come across plenty of people logged in from work or a library.

I think it has more to do with A) time investment B.) speed of reward and C) complication/harder to find.

When people want to play an RPG, for the most part, MMORPGs show up first in browsers. Then, should someone find a mush, they will need to download software, learn commands, and mess around with program settings they're not used to. THEN they will need to use creative writing skills that they may or may not be interest in to conceptualize a character, wait a day or two for approval, and then spend weeks cultivating a character with relationships and plot...

...or they could log into an MMORPG and have near-instant access to gameplay, content, and not really have to wait for anyone to help them find their fun-cookie.

Runescryer

Just my 2 cents, but I think that it's the dearth of black characters in fantasy & science fiction that RPG's and MU's are based on that leads to a smaller number of black role-players. Most minorities are under-represented in heroic roles, IMO. Why would you want to be interested in, say, Vampire when the vast majority of Vampires presented in the game books and fiction are white European/Americans? And the characters that are like you are poor stereotypes?

Of course, outsider looking in here. Feel free to slap my theory down, @Cirno

tragedyjones

I am suddenly reminded of the example of play in VtM 2nd Edition where on of the PCs was a black gangbanger Bruja.

Ghost

@tragedyjones Theo Bell! I have a Theo Bell Brujah action figure. He was a major player in the novels.