The elusive yes-first game.
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The thing is that bringing up "well people can always leave the game if they're being harassed" is just a fundamentally unhelpful thing to even bring up. Like, okay, people can leave. So? Yes, you can abandon a problem. There's just zero that's constructive about it in any conversation. All it does is distract from having actual conversation about harassment problems.
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Have we just hit a point in the hobby where we've whittled down to 50-80% people with cluster-b personality disorders who keep things going by swapping games/abuse circles? Because I keep seeing a steady drop in an already long out-dated medium, and it seems like the majority of people holding on are either doing so to maintain social connections with friends, or are just too entrenched in malfunctioning behavior to stop beating a dead horse.
- take care of yourself, kid. 'cause someone really cares about you.
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@Nein said:
Have we just hit a point in the hobby where we've whittled down to 50-80% people with cluster-b personality disorders who keep things going by swapping games/abuse circles? Because I keep seeing a steady drop in an already long out-dated medium, and it seems like the majority of people holding on are either doing so to maintain social connections with friends, or are just too entrenched in malfunctioning behavior to stop beating a dead horse.
This is a very good post and I would ordinarily give you 100% of my fiat, but this doesn't explain the giant My Little Pony MU* s.
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@Roz said:
The thing is that bringing up "well people can always leave the game if they're being harassed" is just a fundamentally unhelpful thing to even bring up. Like, okay, people can leave. So? Yes, you can abandon a problem. There's just zero that's constructive about it in any conversation. All it does is distract from having actual conversation about harassment problems.
I'm just curious what actual conversation needs to happen on harassment problems. I haven't heard anyone disagree that it shouldn't happen. I haven't heard anyone disagree that harassment is not okay. It comes in many forms, RFK dealt with it in a myriad of forms. I'm certainly no stranger to it. The consensus is that it shouldn't happen, staff shouldn't condone it and that the perpetrator should be told to put up or quit - We'll pretend that at any point in time the harasser and the harasee are ever easy to determine. The consensus is also that no one ever talks about it. The consensus is also that staff doesn't deal with it. RFK did on a regular basis, that was 90% of the job Shav and I did. 90% is not an exaggeration.
So if the consensus is that it happens, no one talks about it and when it is talked about no one does anything about it, as far as i'm concerned, click quit is a pretty constructive thing to do. At least here, everyone seems to agree it shouldn't happen, so hopefully on the games we make we'll not accept harassment. However, talking about the games that don't punish harassment in a place where they don't see it and in a way that probably won't convince them to change anything, is that constructive?
I guess i'm just really confused what conversation, if any, needs to happen on the issue since we're all agreeing on it.
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@Cirno Define "giant". Giant used to be 1000+ players. Now giant is 30-40. The whittle down is still going on over time, especially as the people with disposable time for RP grow up, get jobs, have kids, divide time with social media, and find other hobbies.
MLP games are probably more long lasting because the theme and characters themselves encourage cooperation, forgiveness and actual (not political) tolerance. Theme and genre have a subtle effect on the playerbase; when you adapt the mindset of a backstabbing vampire trying to maintain power by any means and you put on that mindset for 2-16 hours a day (goodness help you if you are putting in 16 hours a day, seek help), there's going to be some psychological bleed-over no matter how much you repeat to yourself that it's just a game. People's minds take on the temperature of the culture and behavior around them, even if it's just pretendy funtime games.
Maybe I'm just bloviating at this point, but you have to have a culture where people are willing to forgive offenses, not sweat the small stuff, work together, and be willing to contribute to the fun of others for a cooperative storytelling game. If the majority are irritable, (passive) aggressive, hyper-competitive and have an attitude of "I'm getting mine, screw everyone else", you will not be able to maintain a MU* no matter how many rules and staff and policies you have.
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@Cirno said:
@Nein said:
Have we just hit a point in the hobby where we've whittled down to 50-80% people with cluster-b personality disorders who keep things going by swapping games/abuse circles? Because I keep seeing a steady drop in an already long out-dated medium, and it seems like the majority of people holding on are either doing so to maintain social connections with friends, or are just too entrenched in malfunctioning behavior to stop beating a dead horse.
This is a very good post and I would ordinarily give you 100% of my fiat, but this doesn't explain the giant My Little Pony MU* s.
WIN.
I still don't get what the fucking point of roleplaying as a fucking pony is. At least have the self respect to be a centaur with arms that can carry axes and a giant horse dick to horsefuck bar wenches with.
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@Ghost Trending themes might also help explain MLP. Five bucks says an Undertale MU* would probably do pretty well riding the popularity crest.
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@Ghost said:
@Cirno said:
@Nein said:
Have we just hit a point in the hobby where we've whittled down to 50-80% people with cluster-b personality disorders who keep things going by swapping games/abuse circles? Because I keep seeing a steady drop in an already long out-dated medium, and it seems like the majority of people holding on are either doing so to maintain social connections with friends, or are just too entrenched in malfunctioning behavior to stop beating a dead horse.
This is a very good post and I would ordinarily give you 100% of my fiat, but this doesn't explain the giant My Little Pony MU* s.
WIN.
I still don't get what the fucking point of roleplaying as a fucking pony is. At least have the self respect to be a centaur with arms that can carry axes and a giant horse dick to horsefuck bar wenches with.
I write MLP fanfiction about ponies in human form and human-shaped, anthropomorphic ponies with hooved feet, horse heads, horse genitalia. It is easier and more convenient and they can actually hold things with their hands.
All the other creative writing places are shit or have little activity. FiMFiction commands a ginormous amount of traffic; again, Pony effect in full function. Everything with MLP slapped on it is successful.
I don't really like the show for obvious reasons and I'm not terribly interested in stubby horses.
My FiMfiction profile link is in my forum profile, if you click on my avatar.
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@Cirno Yep. Popularity crest.
- take care of yourself, kid. 'cause someone really cares about you.
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@Lithium said:
My current idea re-chargen is to allow pretty much instant approval for 'side kick' level characters... It'll be interesting to see how it works out.
All I can say is I hope it works out better for you than it did for me
It wasn't skill points/powers that were the problem, it was people whose backgrounds were flat-out CRAZY, or who had a seriously deficient understanding of the theme. I don't see how those sorts of problems would be any better for sidekicks vs main chars.
Yes, you can let them hit the grid and expect players to sort the mess out, but my experience is that it seriously irritates the existing players. They didn't sign on for that nonsense and it can be really disruptive to RP. I see it as my job to insulate them from craziness as much as practical, and apps are an important step.
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@faraday said:
@Lithium said:
My current idea re-chargen is to allow pretty much instant approval for 'side kick' level characters... It'll be interesting to see how it works out.
All I can say is I hope it works out better for you than it did for me
It wasn't skill points/powers that were the problem, it was people whose backgrounds were flat-out CRAZY, or who had a seriously deficient understanding of the theme. I don't see how those sorts of problems would be any better for sidekicks vs main chars.
Yes, you can let them hit the grid and expect players to sort the mess out, but my experience is that it seriously irritates the existing players. They didn't sign on for that nonsense and it can be really disruptive to RP. I see it as my job to insulate them from craziness as much as practical, and apps are an important step.
Theme is what I find to be the hardest part about MUSHing. The more mature a game is the more theme it has and the harder it is for most new players to ensure that their characters fit into the setting. One idea worth trying is to write primers for some of the more approachable concepts and try to direct new players in that direction.
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I'm not reading all of this. Is 'yes-first' a thing people actually want in a MU?
Sounds like an awful fucking idea. Especially since most MUers are complete and utter, entitled, self-centered trash. Somebody /needs/ to smack the population of this hobby around, even if it means they leave that particular game.
All the WoD games in particular seem to pretty quickly turn to garbage, out of fear of telling people they can't have/do things.
The counter-issue is that telling people no is usually flawed with that staff telling their friends yes, which is a whole different beast.
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@Tempest said:
I'm not reading all of this. Is 'yes-first' a thing people actually want in a MU?
Sounds like an awful fucking idea. Especially since most MUers are complete and utter, entitled, self-centered trash. Somebody /needs/ to smack the population of this hobby around, even if it means they leave that particular game.
All the WoD games in particular seem to pretty quickly turn to garbage, out of fear of telling people they can't have/do things.
The counter-issue is that telling people no is usually flawed with that staff telling their friends yes, which is a whole different beast.
I couldn't agree with this more. There isn't a button that allows me to agree with this more, so I'll have to find the right wording:
I will gladly clean your toilets.
In all seriousness, though, I agree. A lot of downfall in games is based on whether or not people are getting what they want, even when what they want is selfish, unrealistic, or slyly calculated to give them an advantage over other players by means of begging a staffer to give them special sauce. Then, when they don't get their way, they flame, message, gossip, create WORA drama, and bitch bitch bitch until the game has some negative reputation. Then, the staff tries to save face or squelch the problem, which makes it worse...and over and over again.
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@Nein Log into a roleplaying server on an MMO, go to a roleplaying hub with a few hundred people, or a forum with thousands of people just for that game, ask who there plays world of darkness. Probably well under one percent. Then ask who knows what Undertale or MLP is. Probably almost everyone. 'Popularity crest' is probably inaccurate, 'generational divide' I think captures it better.
"Hey guys anyone want to play a vampire game where you need to buy or illegally download dozens of books for an antiquated text format and then deal with lunatics or a shit load of elitists that will mock you not having the game memorized?" It's not an easy fucking sell, I'll tell you that.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
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Yes-first games existed in the 90's and were one of my favorite haunts. MU*s where you supplied nothing but a character name and an email address, and then were on your merry way to RP with whatever and whomever you found there. That's where I learned to be a self-starter about RP, work with people rather than tear them down so everyone could have fun, and how to just shun/ignore trolls and other headcases, but gave them a chance to come back and play again if they changed their behavior.
The caveat to the yes-first game is that you need a large player base (100+) so that one or two people can't successfully control and destroy the fun of everyone else because people can't get away from them, and you need people who lean towards a skeptical/classic liberal behavior and an easygoing mindset of 'live and let live' combined with basic manners. You could find this in 1995. In 2016, these type of people are an endangered species.
Turn on your television or bring up an internet news station. Look at the current behavior of humanity in western society (I don't know of very many MU*s in non-western nations, so I have to work with what I have seen and experienced). What part of the current culture and generation suggests that you will be able to run a yes-first game? I ask this because the majority of players that could come into your game are generated by or influenced by the social fabric around them.
There may not be any point to discussing how to make such a game work, if the game's population is going to be drawn from individuals who on average may be selfish, abusive or emotionally/psychologically battered and bruised. The only way a yes-only game may work at this point is if you could guarantee the players are emotionally mature, cooperative, rational and psychologically stable. Otherwise, you're just asking how to run a better insane asylum.
Yes, this is butting up against more philosophical and culture issues outside our collective control, but the old phrase 'garbage in - garbage out' still applies. A MU* is made of players, and you only have to look at some of the prior posts about bad behavior examples to see that you may not be able to get the players you need to run a yes-first game.
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Hey guys, let's play MLP where we recreate the feel and stories of MLP. Except my pony is a Dominant vampire pony who secretly rules Equestria.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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@Apos Oh I've hit that wall of outdated fandoms. I understand and empathize. You're right about generational divide, I just keep forgetting what an old fart I am (yet another sign of aging, I suppose).
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Two things.
@Tempest said:
I'm not reading all of this. Is 'yes-first' a thing people actually want in a MU?
No one is forcing you to. And some people do. It's not for everyone, but what is?
Sounds like an awful fucking idea. Especially since most MUers are complete and utter, entitled, self-centered trash.
That's an awesome view, quite constructive. May I also remind you the one thing I asked in this thread was that we focus on the methods to achieve a goal, not the goals themselves? I said 'please' and everything.
If you think a "yes-first" game isn't for you then that's fine, I can't possibly fault you. But if you don't have something to offer this conversation than 'we're all a bunch of assholes barely able to function around each other so this is doomed' why are you even here?
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel How about "yes-first after there's a means of determining whether or not someone is capable of playing well with others".
- take care of yourself, kid. 'cause someone really cares about you.
