Someone make a damn CofD/Storytelling 2 game worth playing, kthx

Thenomain

@Thenomain said:

@tragedyjones

I absolutely promise to maybe look into adding Mage to my CofD stat system possibly eventually.

What about Promethean, Changeling and B̶̶̫͎̠̭͈̜̼̞̐̉̈́͆ͩ̈͆͟e̼̳̻̱̾͒͑͡ͅa̤̫̤̥͖͇͍̲ͩ͑ͮ̓͡ş̠̝̪͕̮̲̭̗͑́̑ṫ͛̊͝҉͏̝̹͖̝͈̩̰ͅ?

What was that last one? I can't read that. There's too much static on the line. Let's skip it for now.

Ganymede

@Thenomain said:

I absolutely promise to maybe look into adding Mage to my CofD stat system possibly eventually.

Will you help me put a fantasy-style game together, then? Using CofD as the basis, and Mage: the Awakening for the magic?

I'm thinking of doing the following, and am mulling over the problems:

Mage Arcana purchased as Merits, cost wise, but limited to a particular attribute. E.g., Forces is linked to Strength, so you can only buy Forces up to what your Strength is.
Free-form Rote creation, based on the Mage book, with Rotes costing XP based on the highest Arcana involved.
Non-Rote magick rolled based on the related Attribute.
Extended magick rolls requiring Willpower expenditure for every roll after the first, with a limit on Willpower spent to extend the roll equal to the related Attribute.
Assisted casting by others, limited as per the extended magick rules.

I'm not the most Mage proficient, but I think the above would force people to purchase Rotes and engage in complex magick with others. This would balance the power of magick relative to PCs that specialize in combat (and fighting merits), social maneuvering (based on existing Merits for social interactions), and investigations (using the new Clue system).

And, yes, I've eliminated the need for Gnosis or a power stat. That's intentional.

Looking for input and suggestions. Perhaps this post and topic should be split.

Thenomain

@Ganymede

Doesn't require any code change in the current system, certainly nothing more complicated than you'd find in nWoD Changeling, Werewolf, or psychic nonsense. Getting Willpower spends in rote rolls to process correctly would be the biggest challenge. As it so happens, I am right now trying to make sure I have the CofD rules on willpower on extended rules correct, which since C o' the D does extended rolls kind of funny people should usually be doing them one at a time anyhow.

Anyhow, babbling.

The challenge of unreleased ~~World~~ Chronicles, whatever, of Darkness games is that they all demand on doing something entirely new and different, which means changing the structure of the system to accommodate, usually when people are chomping at the bit to chargen them. It's not unlike bypassing the compressor while in hyperspace, but not as impossible as manually stopping a ship traveling light speed between a planet's outer atmosphere and the surface. I leave that to the pros.

edit: I can even do something as complex as 'Merit.Arcana (Force)' limiting by Strength but 'Merit.Arcana (Time)' limiting by Wits. That would take a half hour to code and test. It would keep the word 'Force' from interrupting other traits that start with the word 'Force', as well.

Sammi

@Ganymede said:

Mage Arcana purchased as Merits, cost wise, but limited to a particular attribute. E.g., Forces is linked to Strength, so you can only buy Forces up to what your Strength is.

You have ten Arcana and nine Attributes, so one of them would have to get two Arcana.

This definitely limits the rate at which a character can get more Arcana, but you'll end up seeing a lot of unbalanced stat categories right out the door. The "problem" with having a power be all or mostly ruled by a single stat is that people don't have much system incentive to buy diverse stats.

Ganymede

@Sammi said:

You have ten Arcana and nine Attributes, so one of them would have to get two Arcana.

I know. Not a perfect system, by any means. The odd one out, for me, would be Prime. Maybe that's limited by your Highest Arcana.

This definitely limits the rate at which a character can get more Arcana, but you'll end up seeing a lot of unbalanced stat categories right out the door. The "problem" with having a power be all or mostly ruled by a single stat is that people don't have much system incentive to buy diverse stats.

Personally, I've never seen a Mage PC built with just one Arcana in mind, but, even supposing that one does that, I don't see much of a problem with a Strength 5, Arcana (Forces) 5 mage lurking about. That's no worse than having a Strength 5, Weaponry 5 bully walking around. If the Super Forces Mage wants her Rotes to be worthwhile -- which cost XP to obtain -- she's going to need Abilities to go with it. Maybe even some other Merits to intensify her Rotes or On-the-Fly Spells. And without Gnosis, on-the-fly spells are rolled against your particular Attribute alone.

I'm not too worried about min-maxing at this point, given I'm probably going to implement a capped-auto-gain XP system, where PCs, after a certain XP limit, cease to auto-gain and only get XP via Aspirations and Plots. Definitely thinking about adding in the yet-to-be-tested Hurt Locker Fighting Merits to give warriors more oomph. And will definitely implement a RfK-esque social and influence system, so that folks that don't want to fling fireballs or swing swords will have meaning and something to play with.

But, back to the Mage system: yeah, I know there's issues. But I basically came up with the 5 tenets above while in the shower last night, and I invited criticism here to hone the ideas.

@Thenomain

I know your code could handle the slight modifications. That's one of the motivations behind eliminating a Power Stat and pushing everything into the Merits category.

The reason why Mass Effect is taking so damn long is because I decided to build the system from the ground up. I don't want to have to do that again, and I want to put myself in a position to ask for your code/assistance when the system's been tweaked to play-testing level.

Misadventure

Boo on #1 linking stats to arcana. BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Ganymede

@Misadventure

Tough cookies, unless you've got an articulable rationale for being a poo-poo head.

Thenomain

@Ganymede

The reason Mass Efect is taking so long is that you're a perfectionist. Not a bad thing to be in game design, but I don't really mind.

Misadventure

@Ganymede I could lay out a lot of whining, but the core is that the system fiction isn't designed around that arrangement at all, and so the Arcana don't feel linked to such things. I can see muscles when I think physical force, but I don't when I see lightning (See The Three Storms). That combines with the problem that the stats are not that interesting, and get little actual descriptive service save as the base of skill pools.

I'd sooner see Arcana linked to personality traits (choose one or more from this list of 3), or having the limits set according to an initial template of merits (could be done by pure numbers, or templates based on kind of mage or culture of origin what have you). By template I mean something like One Arcana limit set to 4, two at 3, one to 1 (or 0!). And you improve those by in game actions and then XP.

It's as clear as purple crayon!

Sammi

@Ganymede
My personal fantasy for the past several years has been a Mage game where the top level of each Arcanum (5 and maybe some of 4, or maybe all of 4 if I'm feeling vindictive) was just chopped off and made into effects that anybody could do, but would require either rote buys (rotes with no ability to improvise the same effect would essentially be distributed like mid-to-high magic Macguffins in that everyone could potentially have one or two) or extreme effort on the part of the mage (a la Unknown Armies).

I have a number of gripes and most of them are personal, but I think my concern is reasonable (for any new Mage game) that the people who drop XP into magic will just be better than people who invest into mundane abilities. It's pretty easy for Mage characters to be designed to completely rely on magic, and then if you run a plot where they don't have the ability to solve it with magic, they're dead in the water.

I know. Not a perfect system, by any means. The odd one out, for me, would be Prime. Maybe that's limited by your Highest Arcana.

I can get behind that just looking at the Arcana, but it makes things awkward for Obrimos. Every Path gets a choice of two Arcana to focus on, and having Prime be subordinate to the primary would force all Obrimos to go Forces first. That is, unless you cut out the Paths.

Arkandel

The problem with patching existing systems is that you end up with a hybrid that doesn't solve the original problem sufficiently and mitigates those system's advantages.

So for Mage by patching you'll either end up overcomplicating the system to get what you want out of it (and that's bad), or oversimplifying it so that it's playable (and the results won't be enough to fix the imbalance - this is usually in the form of HRs).

Either way if you go far enough in that direction you're losing the plug-and-play nature of a known system players are already familiar with and can simply come to your game and play.

Misadventure

I am fairly sure that players who are savvy realize they won't really be using the rules where ever they go.

boneghazi

I was in the middle of it. I had a brilliant set up, was happily shelling out the cash and then every single one of my ST possibilities ditched. Without STs, I refuse to start a game because without someone to drive it, it just turns into tea house RP, peppered with sex.
If I got a handfull of STs, I would happily pick the project back up.

Arkandel

@nyctophiliac said:

I was in the middle of it. I had a brilliant set up, was happily shelling out the cash and then every single one of my ST possibilities ditched. Without STs, I refuse to start a game because without someone to drive it, it just turns into tea house RP, peppered with sex.
If I got a handfull of STs, I would happily pick the project back up.

Maybe we can have a thread where potential game-runners could pitch their concepts to recruit STs. We kinda sorta have something similar for coders as it is.

You could start one.

Ganymede

@Misadventure said:

I could lay out a lot of whining, but the core is that the system fiction isn't designed around that arrangement at all, and so the Arcana don't feel linked to such things.

@Sammi said:

I can get behind that just looking at the Arcana, but it makes things awkward for Obrimos.

I did not make this clear, but I'll go ahead and do it now.

I only wanted to take some of Mage's mechanic systems. I do not intend to adopt its fiction, its orders, or any of that shit. I like how Mage describes magic as a system of "spheres" or "arcana," from which "spells" or "rotes" are derived. I like how you can cast impromptu magic at less potency, but rote magic at higher potency. I like how you give the players that tools to create their own magic, rather than limiting them to published spells like "Magic Missile" or "Ganymede's Unceasing Pedantry."

But, no. No Obrimos, no Mastigos, no Pillars. Just fucking magic, with a new mythos to follow, maybe some new names for the arcana (although the divisions would be familiar), and a new fantasy world to play in. That's why I originally said that I'd use Chronicles of Darkness for a political fantasy game, but use a torn-apart version of Mage for the magic part.

Social creatures get Status, Social Merits, Social Styles, and all of that to play with. You can get land to develop over time that provide bonuses. You can gather resources, govern. Make fancy deals and shit. All of that.

Fighters get the Fighting Styles, including the experimental ones from the Hurt Locker.

Magic users get the Magicky Merits. You could dump all your XP in there, and that's fine, but you won't have VAST TRACTS OF LAND and you may get the shit beaten out of you in fisticuffs. Without Gnosis, impromptu magic gets gimped, which means you have to rely on Rotes, which are a limited-but-awesome bag of tricks.

That's kind of what I'm envisioning. Theno's CGen can handle the stat additions. Just have to make sure the rules of play are clear when it comes to social stuff and magic.

Misadventure

Yeah unless you plan on Forces not being lightning or fire, and Prime to not be about enchanting etc, I'm not talking about the "fiction", but how it is represented as occurring in the world. I really want to foist Ars Magica on you, but I don't want to waste your time.

Ganymede

@Misadventure said:

Yeah unless you plan on Forces not being lightning or fire, and Prime to not be about enchanting etc, I'm not talking about the "fiction", but how it is represented as occurring in the world.

Forces is Forces; Prime is Prime. That's not going to change. How it occurs in the world is philosophical, so that'll be largely explained by the setting; I don't know, maybe the Great God Hubbajubba granted humanity with Forces, I dunno. Not really the point here.

As for Ars Magica, I'm familiar with it. And I rejected it long ago.

boneghazi

@Arkandel I believe I did, I could bump it since there's been some renewed interest

Sammi

@Ganymede said:

That's kind of what I'm envisioning.

Now I understand, and I approve. The limitations on XP gain and a lack of Gnosis should be sufficiently restrictive for high-end magic.

I would totally rock Ganymede's Unceasing Pedantry. And perhaps a whole slew of MUS-themed incantations, like "Sammi's Literalist Interpretation".

Do you have any ideas about how to encourage players to try to make stuff up instead of using book effects? Some of that will depend on the new Mage material coming out, but the MtAw-playing community is used to having tons of published formulae and picking from those more often than trying to concoct something from scratch. If mystical creativity is an element you're shooting for, you might have to find a way to encourage people who don't think of themselves as designers to say, "I want to do this" and then figure out how to do it, rather than looking at a list of how to do things and deciding what they want based on those options.

Arkandel

@nyctophiliac said:

@Arkandel I believe I did, I could bump it since there's been some renewed interest

Interest will always wane but you might get the project going long enough to attract more people, perhaps. Counting on a few specific STs though will never be a good investment no matter what they promise before the game launches.