Shadowrun Denver & New Plot
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@faraday said:
The world is open for you to tell whatever stories you want to tell, but the game is structured around the idea that most players will be doing 'runs - a very limited slice of the world. I'm curious if that's what @Thenomain was getting at?
This is part of it, yes.
The other part if it is that I wasn't saying anything much, so the idea that my bringing up a point was or was not a "problem" was ridiculous. I was at lunch doing things far more interesting than defending a point I never made (i.e., eating and inventing board games), so being contrarian was the most expeditious way for me to hold a mirror up to the silliness.
It's also silly to say "you can do x in game y". Of course you can. You can have fun playing Monopoly, a game designed to be as un-fun as possible. You can play Vampire: The Masquerade as a Toreador who, with a Malkavian, ghouls each 15 gerbils in one night and set them loose on a rival city.
I did this, and it was fun.
But if you asked anyone what Vampire is about, they're probably not going to say that this is something that you would do on a night-by-night basis unless you were in a gaming group with me when I was 19. I would never let anyone get away with this on a Mu*, due to how far off the known theme it was and what the game says vampires are and what they do, but I did this, and it was fun.
@Thenomain said:
What does an adventuring party do when they have nothing to adventure? What defines a shadowrunner when they're not on a run?
The real reason for this statement is to make the parallel between D&D and ShadowRun. Neither game really explains what you do besides "be an adventurer" or "be a shadowrunner". On Mu*s, most of what you do when logged in is neither adventure nor run shadows. Of the two, I find D&D to be far more lenient as you are defined by your ability. You are a fighter, what you decide to fight and why are up to you. As a shadowrunner you run shadows. If you didn't, you wouldn't be a shadowrunner, you would be playing BarBouncer, the sci-fi fantasy game set in a dark near-future.
Without adventuring, a mage is still a mage. Without shadows to run, a shadowrunner is ...
...
I don't know. You can decide to be something else, but you are changing the nature of the game. You're going outside the lines, thinking outside the box, which is fine and well and good but needs tread carefully. My Toreador may have a new pet for you.
edit:
Faraday, I posit that your group was still adventuring. You may not have been going on planned adventures, but the "friday night fire fight at the Stuffer Shack" example mentioned earlier is an adventure, 'run or no. Because it would be boring as hell to get together as friends and talk about spending at time at a bar day in and day out. Mushes are painfully different that way.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said:
Without adventuring, a mage is still a mage. Without shadows to run, a shadowrunner is ...
I guess that's where we see things differently (which is OK). "Without adventuring, a mage is still a mage" applies equally well to Shadowrun as it does to D&D.
Neither game really explains what you do besides "be an adventurer" or "be a shadowrunner".
Except Shadowrun does. Does the fact that it's in a supplemental sourcebook and not the main book make it any less a part of the game? (Or heck, maybe it's in the main book now; I never bothered to buy 5th ed.)
Faraday, I posit that your group was still adventuring.
Absolutely. My point was just that adventure != shadowrun. And yeah... I have a hard time envisioning how a Shadowrun MUSH would work without the adventuring focus. I mean, I know they're out there, but I tried to play on them a couple of times as was just like... completely at a loss.
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@faraday said:
Neither game really explains what you do besides "be an adventurer" or "be a shadowrunner".
Except Shadowrun does. Does the fact that it's in a supplemental sourcebook and not the main book make it any less a part of the game?
A dangerous question to ask me! It's my very strong opinion that if the main rulebook doesn't tell you how to play the game, then it's optional. So as an option you can play something besides a shadowrunner, it sounds like. (Edit: And if a game doesn't tell you what your characters do in the course of the game, it's probably a pretty shitty game.)
You could also have countered by reminding me that the character classes in ShadowRun are actually just archetypes, things to get you started, and you can play any skill-based character that you want.
Even though it's three kinds of mage (spirit, non-spirit, internet), two types of fighter (magic and technology), and whatever the hell riggers are supposed to be. Rangers, maybe? Do they get a level bonus versus giants? Hm.
There are no thieves because, let's face it, you're all thieves.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said:
Without adventuring, a mage is still a mage. Without shadows to run, a shadowrunner is ...
The answer to this is highly dependant on the character. They could be a SINNER and have a day job, where they Shadowrun for VIGILANTE JUSTICE or help paying for medical bills. They could be Ecoterrorists who use the funds to bankroll their lurve of Gaia. They could be rockers who use their night missions as inspiration for their music. They could be SINless and have to fight for every inch of their life, with the payday from a shadowrun being enough to give them a few nights of rest before they rinse and repeat. They could be addicted to chrome and need the money for more 'ware...
And so on. While Shadowrun has archetypes, they are not classes. Your character is your character, and you do not need to be a Bard to go and do music stuff - you only need a performance skill.
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@Jennkryst said:
While Shadowrun has archetypes, they are not classes.
@Thenomain said:
You could also have countered by reminding me that the character classes in ShadowRun are actually just archetypes
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain They are not equivalent, though. Shadowrun has far more in common with WoD than it does D&D. Because if you want to go and learn how to fight better, you pick up a combat skill.
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@Thenomain said:
So as an option you can play something besides a shadowrunner, it sounds like.
Of course - every game needs to have a focus and I think (hope?) everyone would agree that "being a shadowrunner" is the focus for Shadowrun. Though as an aside, I looked it up (because I'm pedantic) and the "non-shadowrunner" variants are indeed in the main rulebook as "Alternate Campaigns".
I guess it all comes down to how you define a game. For me, setting trumps all. But then, I admit to being heavily influenced by the fiction. Most of the early fiction stories weren't about traditional runners at all. That helped to shape what Shadowrun means to me.
But when I sit down to play (which I haven't in ages)... yeah, I totally mostly play traditional shadowrunners doing traditional shadowruns. I never claimed to be consistent
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@Jennkryst said:
The fact that every gear-ish book from SR1 and SR2 had 'consumer review' sections where people gave feedback to anyone buying stuff, and the existence of the Dumpshock Forum prove that social media was a thing. Not as big a thing as Jackpoint became, but still a thing. Wireless matrix may not have existed in SR1, but I'm like 90% sure it was there for SR2 in it's expanded Matrix rulebook, and I am 100% positive that it was there for SR3. The rules may have been shitty (detection penalties, program size limits, speed reduction)... but they were there.
As for the paranoia and dystopia, it's arguable we are already there, but we're either as blind as the wageslaves are, or (more likely) we see what's happening, but we're either too lazy or terrified to actively do anything about it.
I guess it depends on how you define social media. I'm thinking more of stuff like Facebook and Instagram. Sure, the SR supplementals had the comments from users, but Shadowland and its successor Jackpoint are purely BBSes, which doesn't seem terribly in keeping with the times. They're social media, but I don't think they're really what we think of when we use that term today.
I'm also at a loss as to where the SR3 rules for wireless Matrix would be, because I've never seen them. You can connect to the Matrix via satellite, and there are rules for that, but I don't believe wifi-type Matrix connection exists until SR4.
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The pure horror of advanced social media in cyberpunk would be like sticking Cthulhu into a My Little Pony RPG. Or Watership Down into any RPG.
GURPS Transhumans touched on it with the creation of meme crimes that generated suicide cults and warfare.
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@Thenomain Still accepting players if for kickoff plot!
Does is even really matter debating a fictional universe vs the real world universe? Why not just let it be what it is- anachronistic at some points (wired internet, bulky cybernetic implants), and completely on point at others (i.e: Complete corporate coup of world governments + insane rich/poor dichotomy).
And BTW - Much fun to be had at Shadowrun Denver on the new plot.. Just log on!
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Never played Shadowrun. Always wanted to though.
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@Jennkryst said:
Shadowrun has far more in common with WoD than it does D&D. Because if you want to go and learn how to fight better, you pick up a combat skill.
Systematically, yes. I was talking theme when I brought in D&D and Tolkein. I had already admitted to D&D and ShadowRun not being systematically equivalent when I quoted myse-- you know what, why am I arguing this?
@faraday said:
I guess it all comes down to how you define a game.
Nobody has managed to define a game to any single definition, but they usually come down to having rules, limitations, and voluntary involvement. Mind you, if we can't come up with a single definition of "game" then I don't see us coming up with a single definition of "role-playing game".
When I said "if it's not in the main rules then it's optional", this is a personal conceit because I've had this it-depends argument too many times. For an even more wildly off-topic example, when Mage: The Awakening came out, I complained that its was far too limited and a few people mentioned how the second book fixes a lot of that. I don't think it's fair or even a good idea to expect anyone to buy an expansion. The game that's in the main rulebook is the game that you're being asked to play.
I am 100% behind playing outside the rules and setting, but at which point the main book is being houseruled. When you're playing a Mu*, house-ruling the main rules is ... something we complain about on a fairly regular basis.
Most of the early fiction stories weren't about traditional runners at all. That helped to shape what Shadowrun means to me.
This tickled me. What defines a traditional crook in modern society? I don't know! In the third Shadowrun Returns game, you don't start out as a 'runner, but by god you end as one. Maybe it's entirely how people see you.
Ahhem.
@Finn said:
@Thenomain Still accepting players if for kickoff plot!
Does is even really matter debating a fictional universe vs the real world universe? Why not just let it be what it is- anachronistic at some points (wired internet, bulky cybernetic implants), and completely on point at others (i.e: Complete corporate coup of world governments + insane rich/poor dichotomy).
And BTW - Much fun to be had at Shadowrun Denver on the new plot.. Just log on!
Point taken, sir. Point taken!
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
Shadowrun is like any other game it is what the people at the table make it.
I have run D+D campaigns with out a single dungeon crawl, in the Shadowrun table top I am currently in, we started out as basic runner though quickly left that behind to further our own IC goals and while we still take paying jobs we are ICly quite picky and spend almost as much time researching if we should take a job as we do doing the job. Oddly enough our must frequent employer is the DA, mostly in legal situations.
The plot we spent the most time on is one that no one paid our chars for but was personal to the PCs.
Of course I have the feeling I want something different out of a gaming book then Theno does. I am basically show me the world, show me the rules to interact with that world, get out of my way. I really don't care how the author intends me to play. -
@rebekahse said:
@Jennkryst said:
The fact that every gear-ish book from SR1 and SR2 had 'consumer review' sections where people gave feedback to anyone buying stuff, and the existence of the Dumpshock Forum prove that social media was a thing. Not as big a thing as Jackpoint became, but still a thing. Wireless matrix may not have existed in SR1, but I'm like 90% sure it was there for SR2 in it's expanded Matrix rulebook, and I am 100% positive that it was there for SR3. The rules may have been shitty (detection penalties, program size limits, speed reduction)... but they were there.
As for the paranoia and dystopia, it's arguable we are already there, but we're either as blind as the wageslaves are, or (more likely) we see what's happening, but we're either too lazy or terrified to actively do anything about it.
I guess it depends on how you define social media. I'm thinking more of stuff like Facebook and Instagram. Sure, the SR supplementals had the comments from users, but Shadowland and its successor Jackpoint are purely BBSes, which doesn't seem terribly in keeping with the times. They're social media, but I don't think they're really what we think of when we use that term today.
I'm not sure how you'd show something like facebook or instagram in the static image of a page. But what is facebook, anyway, aside from a very fancy BBS?
I'm also at a loss as to where the SR3 rules for wireless Matrix would be, because I've never seen them. You can connect to the Matrix via satellite, and there are rules for that, but I don't believe wifi-type Matrix connection exists until SR4.
The rules for Radio and Cellular matrix links in SR3 are in the same section (often even on the same page) as Satellite links.
@Thenomain It's because the mechanics shape the character and fluff. A Rogue without Move Silently is like a Rigger without Drive (whatever). You asked about theme and roleplay between adventures/missions... so what does a rigger do between missions? Be a rigger. A mage is a mage. A shaman is a shaman. A decker is a decker. Just like a wizard in D&D is a wizard when they aren't on an adventure.
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Boy these conversations are way more civil without what's his face on the boards anymore.
I kinda like the newer editions. They made matrix less of a chore for DM's to run at the same time as a physical world scene. You can more easily manage a decker on his own and the team doing their thing. Most games I played would just not have the matrix as a intractable part of it because of the hassle of splitting the group and dealing with all those nit picky rules of the matrix.
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@Thenomain said:
@faraday said:
Most of the early fiction stories weren't about traditional runners at all. That helped to shape what Shadowrun means to me.
This tickled me. What defines a traditional crook in modern society? I don't know! In the third Shadowrun Returns game, you don't start out as a 'runner, but by god you end as one. Maybe it's entirely how people see you.
But the fiction characters I'm speaking of weren't crooks at all. Kyle Teller from Burning Bright was an upscale paranormal investigator specializing in missing persons cases. Dirk Montgomery in 2XS was also a private eye. Technobabel is about a Renraku corporate operative. One was about a guy working undercover for Lone Star.
Were these guys "Shadowunners"? Depends on your definition. "A criminal who does shadowruns as part of a shadowrunner team" is one definition - that's what I meant as the "traditional" one. But many take a looser definition, one that just implies someone who works in the shadows - the underbelly of society.
The Shadowrun RPG gives you rules to make up a character - any character. It gives you rules for conflict and combat resolution to apply in any situation. It gives you a rich game world. It gives you one default campaign model - the traditional shadowrunning team model - that it focuses on. It also - in the main rulebook - offers other alternate campaign models. I see it as being a lot less restrictive than you seem to.
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Double post for a more on-topic question for @Finn -- how does the MUSH handle these 'alternate' style chars? I mean, let's say I made up a street doc, or a private eye, or a journalist, or a ganger... is there actually stuff for them to do other than bar RP? Or are all the plots geared towards 'runners?
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@faraday That's one of my frequent questions for games like D&D as well. What do characters get to do when they're not adventurers? The entire game's mechanics are geared towards quest, get items, level up, repeat.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
That's one of my frequent questions for games like D&D as well. What do characters get to do when they're not adventurers? The entire game's mechanics are geared towards quest, get items, level up, repeat.
Perhaps they play the Game of Questions?
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TL;WR: Put another way, D&D parties do not behave as realistic unit. They act like they are in a game.
Fiction requires that you be able to present details in a form that the reader can grasp and understand the implications of. Investigation and showing off the intriguing bits of tech and culture change is far easier than delving into the (often heroic) vision of elite teams up against elite obstacles.
It feels strange saying that, given that the cyberpunk fiction that inspired these games got away with a great deal of vague, but they could rely on the readers imagination to fill in details, or rather a sense of details, that what in fact neither the reader nor author actually knew. In a game setting, you need to be able to ask, evaluate, and engage a solution around a given factor like how social engineering works, or the ways to bypass a given security measure, AND convey why every person ever couldn't pull it off with ease.
