Posts made by Apos

Now one important thing for staff. You'll hear through the grapevine about people quitting for wildly hypocritical reasons, absurd reasons, reasons based off of things factually untrue. I never think it's worth it to argue your point of view to anyone that's left for any reason. Never chase people. You can think about their concerns, work to address ones you thought were valid underneath the vitriol or hyperbole, and dismiss the ones that are unreasonable.

I never chase people, though I do try hard to look at it from their perspective, and more often than not it can still be thrown out.

I generally think of it on two scales of investment and fun. Someone could be super invested and be having zero fun, and still want to play despite being miserable because they can't bear the thought of flushing down the character/stories they are invested in. Someone could be having a ton of fun and not be invested at all. I think when either of those is chipped away, people take off.

Everyone has a lot going in their lives. Just some people want to make sure it's everyone else's problem too. Don't try to justify or explain, really. I feel for someone that has all sorts of terrible reasons they acted out but at the end of the day, there's plenty of people MUs dealing with horrible, horrible shit in their RL that never cause problems for anyone.

Ever.

I kind of think the term 'first offense' is a misnomer, as far as these games go. Unless a staffer is totally unfamiliar with someone, pretty much everyone has at least some kind of pattern of behavior that can be established really easily. Like, I might not have RP'd with Bob, but if Bob talks in public about how a lot of women irl make false claims, refers how he posts on the redpill, says he gets into fights irl all the time because people can't handle how alpha he is, is consistently confrontational... I mean, if someone that has never caused a problem before said, 'Bob made me uncomfortable', I don't think asking for a log is really all that necessary, Bob is gone.

I mean, maybe that's unfair and all, but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and makes constant microaggressions that perpetuate a culture were harassment can flourish like a duck, then just get rid of the damned duck.

@downwithopp said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:

What happened with Snowglass was unacceptable. If I made her uncomfortable

In light of how the thread developed and the numerous posts, let me just highlight that from your original post and say the answer is probably, 'it is a safe bet you did'.

I'd take from this thread that if you have an inner voice going, 'Hey would this be uncomfortable' the answer is always yes, and do not do that thing.

@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@thenomain said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I personally think that this is a bit of an insult to the ability for adults to act like adults when treated like adults, and expected to act like adults, but this is my take on the entire issue.

To me the really insulting thing is the implied suggestion we can only be adults and treat each other with some civility if there is some rule forcing us to. Or that otherwise we'd all be acting the way of the Hog Pit, all the time.

I really detest that idea.

I harbor doubts about the Hog Pit being productive or useful and I still don't think that. What I do think is that a light touch in moderation or no moderation guarantees derails will happen in most cases. Someone says something provocative or accusatory, someone responds, that response gets a counter, and on and on and on even if it had nothing to do at all with the topic itself. So if you allow provocative statements, and this can be positive statements too as I'd consider 'Ditko is a swell dude' a pretty fucking provocative statement, then derails are just natural and any thread is gonna have to be forked or moved if it happens.

I think the vitriol isn't great but that's almost really beside the point, if there's 50 pages of 'are furries good or bad on comic book games' and 2 pages of 'hey this staffer sexually harasses people in pages and drives everyone off the game', I'd really rather those 2 pages be noticed than the Great Furry Debate of '17.

@thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@thenomain
Except that to me this place is not a community, any more than the classifieds of a paper would be or any other messaging service.

You're very consistent in your philosophy regarding games, and have an extremely transactional approach to them that I consider the far opposite of my point of views generally. I don't think a transactional approach is intrinsically bad or anything like that, but I think it doesn't fit the format so great. Having a, 'Everyone should get in, get what they are looking for, and get out' approach really works best when you can't expect reciprocal behavior due to sheer size making it unlikely you'll meet the same people again. That makes sense to me in an MMO, but MUs are so much smaller than that. Since people play with each other over and over again, it's just natural that community starts to form because if we're going to be dealing with one another time and again, why not?

Like, at first it seems weird and maybe even a little over invested that people take their reputations on MUs so seriously, since hey we're anonymous people through the internet. But not so much, really. We collaborate with each other so often and so consistently, what people think of us can really matter. No one wants to devote a ton of effort into something to just see it explode in a profoundly unsatisfying way, and those kind of collaborative relationships that form are people buffering themselves from those disappointments. And that's why a community is natural for anyone wanting something long term and not willing to risk their work and effort on a spin of the wheel.

I dunno man, I think the vast majority of people just can't play themes like that well. Any kind of character with flaws that invite antagonism really has to be played like a potential antagonist, and assuming you have a collaborative game, that requires embracing an extremely collaborative mindset to avoid issues.

Every character like that, any time they give a line that can provoke conflict, it really should be done with the mindset of, 'What does this let the other PCs do?' Does it let them react in a way they find fun or entertaining, or build a solid story? What kind of scene are they hoping to have? What are the other players looking for from the RP? Would the antagonism from the character be completely contrary to the existing scene, and limit their options? Can you reconcile the differing comfort levels of each of the players involved in the scene?

If a player can't answer those kind of questions, and the game is not a PVP centric game, they should not be playing those characters. And let's be real, the number of players that would even think in those terms is pretty small, and most people just wanna play an obnoxious trope, stir up some trouble for their own fun, and give zero fucks about how annoying or upsetting it is for everyone else.

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@wizz said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I don't find the toxicity WORA was known for "entertaining" and I have a pretty low opinion of people who do, and it frustrates and discourages me that big meltdowns like the UH X-Men drama tend to draw new faces who want to see more of the same.

Yeah. I get that @Arkandel has no intention of doing away with the hog pit. That's the mods' right and it is not my intention to beat a dead horse.

But I will say this: We talk sometimes about the future of MUSHing, about how hard it is to draw in new players, etc. As someone who knows writers who might be interested, who has a daughter who some day might be interested... I can't in good conscience invite them into a gaming community that is so darn toxic. And I'm not just talking about MSB here, because the same attitude that feeds the Hog Pit pervades the games too.

Now it's not all bad. But it is pretty disheartening.

The question I ask myself now is, 'Have I helped cultivate an environment where I can be reasonably confident that any new person will have positive experiences, and that no one will randomly be rude to them?' With the community as it is, I don't think I have much choice but to be incredibly strict in order to get that outcome. I pretty much figure anyone running a game has to decide whether they are going to be forgiving, only police the big problems (if that), and accept the churn that comes from annoying microaggressions that drive people off games, or be ready to fight endlessly to stop it.

Yeah discussions will be dumpster fires, buuuuuut...

Lock the advertising threads to a single post, editable by the the creator. Make a new area for MU Reviews, in between mildly constructive and hog pit. -Any- thread created relating to the game is linked to the advertising thread by a mod in a single posted reply by the mod, giving a list of all applicable threads, including every single time a discussion turns into a dumpster fire and is forked. Nothing is hidden, and anyone clicking on the ad threads sees a list of a dozen thread links. The pain in the ass this would be for mods to update that each time would be offset by getting to name what the thread is to, like, 'Why Terrible People Do Terrible Things'.

@ganymede The hog pit and mildly constructive and ad threads being indistinguishable in tone wasn't a big deal before, but it would be a big deal now moving towards moderation. But on the subject of a 'constructive criticism' area, I'm not sure it would help, or it would take a herculean effort to set a tone that will catch on, and here's why.

Ditko or Vaultgirl registers and posts a thread about UH or Fallout respectively.

There is absolutely no way, none at all, either of those regardless of content become anything but a shit show. And if they are moved immediately, then it has the appearance of protecting abusive people. I personally would just call the area 'MU Reviews' and leave it to the same moderation standards as the hog pit, because I believe that MUs are going to be so emotionally charged that it is going to be incredibly difficult to keep threads remotely constructive as soon as someone leaves a game for reasons that has them really pissed off. Now, on the flip side, I'd have the mildly constructive area have way harder moderation than it currently has, but yeah I think it would be extremely difficult to do that for any debate on actual games or people playing those games.

I personally would just have mildly constructive a place to discuss ideas and design, and the hog pit a place to discuss specific games or people or examples of behavior. Because the latter is always going to be personal, imo. I'd just open the hog pit up to make membership standard with an opt out, even if I think the whole, 'omg moving to the hog pit is suppressing speech' is histrionic and silly. Right now I don't really notice which threads are where, frankly.

@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Conversely, some of the posters here are staff on various games, and I suspend they wouldn't have tolerated neither the tone or degree of criticism applied they are themselves showing. Nor is it easy to shrug off being told you are complete shit at what you do publicly, then come back and word a polite response back from that.

I think most wouldn't have tolerated Tempest freaking out, but the rest...? I think that's selling the different staffers posting in this thread short. Yes, it's extremely difficult to be unfailingly polite when you feel insulted. I am pretty sure most of us get that. A lot of us also feel it's okay to speak in the same tone as you are spoken to, just we also feel it is a failing to be the first one to drop the tone lower and escalate things further. While it's great if someone can consistently be unfailingly polite and consistently try to always deescalate things, I don't think anyone expects mods or staff to be punching bags. That would be unreasonable. Just not to also be the first one to throw a punch either.

Yeah no offense guys but if a mod's job is moving threads, and in a thread you suggest posts should be moved, maybe they think you are suggesting it because it kind of falls under the job description. It wasn't like this, unfathomable leap of logic that you should be horrified at the obtuseness of it all. I'm just saying.

Mildly constructive is pretty nebulous, since almost all of the big blowups are about behavior of either players or staff, any criticism of that is gonna seem like a personal attack anyways. I think it's always going to be tone and whether or not a post is suggesting constructive changes, rather than asking if they would consider dying in a fire or fornicating with themselves.

@aria Yeah some of the permissions are wonky and Tehom is looking at it. Along similar lines, if a command has seemed to vanish, let us know, since it would be related to the same issue.

Upgrade to latest version of evennia and merge should be done, and the game's back up. Let us know if you have any weird problems. Things look all right so far.

Hmm, I think every creator would feel put out by someone ripping off their work, and it would be generally a communal standard that not crediting someone else's work is a shitty thing to do.

I think it might be better to ask 'how specific does something have to be in order to feel justified in feeling ripped off'? Like for example, if someone used like some of my very broad and vague ideas, I don't think they need to credit me, and it probably wouldn't be reasonable for me to get annoyed by it. Like Arx's random scenes, first impressions, very general design and incentives are pretty simple, general ideas that I think anyone could come up with independently, and I don't think I can feel particular ownership over them. On the other hand, if someone lifted the actual code without asking or giving credit and used it, that moves from general ideas to work, and that would probably make Tehom annoyed (even if he would have said 'sure' if someone had just asked).

Put another way, one person had to be the first one to decide that a wiki to go along with a game was going to be a great idea, and enrich the RP experience of a lot of players. That's a general game design idea that just became a largely agreed upon best practice, resulting in most games using wikis, and I certainly have no clue who the first person that had that idea was. But ripping off the specific formatting code on the wikis moves past the territory of best practices to stealing someone's creative work. And I think the line between the two can be a little vague sometimes.

Most of these people can be a little snippy over, but it's not a big deal. it's just a little nudge and most reasonable people are able to go with the flow. That's not usually what causes the big blowups, though.

What happens though is these little debates become proxies for real huge fights. Like the 'Gravball has 5 man teams' isn't really because someone is passionately dedicated to the idea of 5 man teams or bigger teams, but because Frank just showed up and would be a 6th, and Bob hates Frank's guts, and really doesn't want frank there, so he tells Frank to learn theme and get the hell out. Or because Chad was just shot in the face, and then spends 4 hours debating ballistics to show why, no sir, it would be impossible for him to be shot in the face. It's not because Chad is mortally offended by the audacity of someone to handwave ballistics, but because he really would rather not be shot in the face. This also comes up hardcore when a setting wants to avoid a problematic element and someone's like, 'THAT IS UNREALISTIC' when they really mean, 'hey, fuck you man, #thatsmyfetish'. The issue is usually really not realism vs pedantry, so much as the really uncomplimentary truths underlying it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that characters with extroverted personalities that are given an out from consequences due to their age or any other variable, are going to attract a lot of problematic players.

Doesn't really matter why someone is given an out from consequences. Age, Tragic Backstory, Strong Dude That Doesn't Afraid of Anything, Family That Will Protect The Princess... whatever. Any character that can act like a prima donna and get away with it for some reason is going to attract the worst people in the hobby, with a small percentage of positive, collaborative roleplayers.