Best posts made by bored

Having just come back from a trip to the Caribbean with a camera full of Spanish fortresses, I am both filled with inspiration and at the same time still vaguely underwhelmed by the new books.

Without getting into a huge simulationist/narrativist debate, I'm just not sure the mechanics are at all suitable to MU-style play, especially since PvP is basically not on the menu. Beyond that, Swordsman Schools seem even more mandatory, not less (the impression the playtest gave us to build up our hopes), and there's so little guidance to building Risks / Consequences / etc that I'm pretty sure things would quickly devolve into a mire of inconsistency and the associated impression of favoritism, rightly or wrongly.

@lordbelh said in Game Concept: Paying for rare things:

@Auspice I liked their system. You couldn't start out your first character as super special, but eventually everybody could be one if they just stuck around for a bit. Or you could exchange the cookies for XP. So you had the choice between being special by being better, or being special by being fancy unique.

I think I ended up doing something like this on my short-lived L5R game, although it was death-based: you got some amount of transfer XP when you died (and I think there were bonuses for dying gloriously / heroic sacrifice / seppuku / etc). You could also spend some of it to unlock the rare shit that wasn't in normal CG (Imperial chars, really weird schools, non-clan monks, really snowflake-y merits, Void shugenja, etc). Overall it was meant to both gate the weird stuff and encourage people to accept character death given the lethality of the game and a setting where people are supposed to willingly kill themselves to preserve their honor.

As the game didn't last that long it didn't get a lot of trying out, but one person lost their first character fighting an Oni on the Wall (as tends to happen!) and used it to get a fancy monk and seemed happy with that.

So I'm pretty in favor of the concept. It fits in with my general (and often loudly-stated) belief that chargen should be fair and everyone should have to pay for their special stuff instead of staff just handing out awesome feature/tiers/etc to their friends and ending up with faction leader special snowflakes who are also the best swordfighter and lover in the land. I really feel you need to impose these kinds of costs somewhere, because they make people choose what's important to them. It's a concept as old as RPG character creation, really.

@fatefan Much as I would like to lay claim to awesomeness, nope.

... my Deathstroke was cool, though ('No charge!'). Or maybe it's just hard to be a badass old man and not be cool.

@lordbelh I think the issue is that, to be anywhere true to the comics, it should be absolutely nothing like Camarilla vs. Sabbat. It shouldn't even really be PvP. Villains shouldn't be winning in the long term, outside of particular story arcs that necessitate it, and they definitely shouldn't be winning because 'lol man I took <leet power #9> and rolled a 6, you ded superbro.'

I'm all for PvP in some games or settings but it just seems bizarre in the comic context, especially with the perpetual fluidity of power levels as writing demanded. I feel like the only way it would work was with a very narrative-minded system, where maybe people were bidding story tokens of some sort or another and the actual powers/abilities of characters mattered almost not at all.

@Arkandel This is not only the bane of multi-sphere MUs (and why I basically gave up on the genre due to Mage being everywhere), but also the bane of logic fundamental logic in most fantasy settings, too. Massed warfare makes no sense when fireball is a thing, castles are dubious around fly and dimension door, etc. Or let alone economics or fundamental population demographics. There was actually a project some people undertook to make a D&D setting that tried to render society in a realistic way taking the magic into account (I don't mean Eberron, though it did it at a much smaller level and at least tried to acknowledge some magic-tech stuff), and it's amazing just how unrecognizably different it is from what the tropes usually give us.

@Paris Ah ok. I mean I can get the 'public RP' gripe if translated to the most narrow 'coffee shop' definition, but in general I'm much more interested in games where there's frequently people in character on the grid, where events happen that you can just walk into, etc. Good public engagement is kind of my measure of an interesting, healthy MU. If people are going to Sandbox and RP in private, I don't see why they couldn't just skip the CG process and do it on Shang.

I didn't really play much on TR, I'm just kind of highlighting that generation/era of WoD games as where I stopped, it could really even be a little earlier with some of the pioneer 2.0 games. The culture felt different and I failed to feel engaged by it. Most of my last run was on various Lords & Ladies style games (both literal and sci-fi). They have their own set of problems, namely usually devolving into a pretty princess fantasy for the creator, failing to give the 'plebes' enough role in the story (despite often being small games), etc.

@surreality said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

I started off saying you'd likely have me as a curious player despite the flaws, I don't know that anything I'm saying is mean or nasty. I don't know how I'm saying that your game is doomed to fail (I'm pretty sure I've literally implied no such thing anywhere). This is getting to 'simply cannot criticize at all' territory. What... what can I possibly say about the cthlulu thing other than the fact that I really don't like it? That is a personal taste. Are you expecting me to lie, here?

And no, I'm not accusing you of corruption, I am making an observation on MUing that I consider a truism, that you literally have two options: Everyone is a special snowflake and the game is primarily about whatever 'unique' thing (ie, whether you're talking the force, magic, being a Grey Warden or Witcher if someone made games in those universes, whatever), or staff's friends are special snowflakes. Have you solved this problem in a unique way that hasn't been done in 20+ years without mentioning that in any of the many, many, many threads on the topic?

I'm also not 'freaking out' about the idea of areas being restricted, I am, as I think the other posted was likely trying as well, again positing what is a well-known MU reality: that splitting playerbases nearly always kills games. No one is saying OMG YOU ARE GIVING CERTAIN PEOPLE THE SPEHSULS OMGOMGOMG.

Anyway, to reference the meta thread, maybe I'm being negative, but you're being so defensive its literally impossible to criticize this at any level. Like, you made a post 'here are my whacky ideas,' do you mostly want 100% praise and encouragement, is this a moral support thread?

To again (again) be clear: I support your idea. I dislike parts of it... because I do. Other things I think are practical problems based on the long history of MUing, that I am pointing out so you can address them ahead of time, avoid pitfalls, and in generally improve its chances for prolonged success.

But I guess this makes me the fucking Grinch.

@Roz Really? The very first question is 'what kind of tentacled magical sea creature do you want to be'? I'm pretty sure 'sorry, I don't' is actually a proper response to that question.

But even beyond that, bullshit. You don't post a thread like this talking about the entirety of your vision for a game and expect no general criticism or commentary. Seriously, if she's not ready to have people comment on her authorial vision, she should keep it to herself. I don't feel I've remotely gone outside the realm of 'constructive' (particularly on things like 'yeah, making shit rare is hard' and 'don't split your game, because don't, it'll die'), but if 100% positivity is her threshold, well, that's also addressed in the meta thread: there have been / are other places for that.

@Ghost In utterly non constructive form: Go fuck yourself.

I'm not even working on my game idea, because (as I mentioned) I can't even find a system I like for it. The accusation that I'm just tearing her down in favor of my project (that, in all likelihood, will never happen) is ridiculous. I've offered support to @Lisse24 on her game, desipte it OMG NOT BEING 7TH SEA, and you can confirm that with her if you want. Or not.

You can also fuck yourself. You're why we can't have nice things on this forum.

@Roz

In my mind, given how this forum works, it's an appropriate response. The section is called 'Mildly Constructive,' not 'Only Positive Feedback.' This is discussed in the other thread, you can make places where people are only supposed to speak if they have something nice (or better, encouraging, I don't think I was being mean - because when I'm mean I'm really mean) to say, but this isn't that place. So 'Hey guys are you super excited about my idea for magical alien fish monsters? Please answer which you're most excited for below!' is fairly predictably going to get an answer: 'I'm not really excited for them at all' in this particular forum.

Beyond that, I've said and will say 100 times more, despite @Ghost being out with the hive mind pitchforks, I support her general idea in the sense of the game existing. I will try playing on the game (and I don't play on games really any more, as discussed elsewhere). I would even help her with some of it if she wanted (because again, I really don't see ever actually doing my project, as much as I muse on it), although I think obviously our ideas probably clash and that might not help.

And the point is absolutely positivity vs negativity when fairly mild criticism is met with: YOU ARE TRYING TO SABOTAGE HER GAME FOR YOURS YOU MONSTER!

@Arkandel If you're replying with actually constructive intent (toward me, not her), feel free to point out where you feel like my posts only have the value of being discouraging to her. That's not my intent.

I'm being totally honest when I say that I point out problems because... I dunno, sometimes people have blinders on about this shit. I mean, she's making a game where some people will be magic whatsits. But not all of them? That immediately means she really has to consider carefully how she's allotting these characters, the effects of any demographic division (even Firan couldn't successfully run 'multiple cities'), etc. If she wants to pretend those aren't potential game-killer issues, that's her business, but I don't think I'm a monster for bringing them up.

@surreality Again, while you insist on continuing to read my reference to a very common and obvious MU trope as a personal accusation that HEY GUYS SURR IS CORRUPT, I can't help you. Like, you are bending over backwards to insist that I hate you and I'm accusing you of whatever and it's ridiculous. I can't help you with that level of internalized expectated negativity. That's on you, on this board, on whatever, but it's not on me. I am referencing a well-known issue with these kinds of characters. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it was Jedi, not your own fish people. But because they're your fish people, because it's your idea, I'm obviously slandering you and OMG what a jerk.

And no, it's not unreasonable to ask that we keep it on focus. But you engaged me for several posts on the topic. Some of it was actually constructive, in the sense you clarified how things would work where I may have misunderstood something, though it didn't change either of our opinions. I think we really could have left it at that; I would have left it at that if your first reply today had been 'Ok, your opinion is your opinion but I love my fish monsters, lets talk about fish monsters.' Instead your first post today was, and this isn't even that much hyperbole: 'Look at this awful guy slandering me and accusing me of corruption! He is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the hobby! Hive mind defend poor delicate Surr and her creativity!!!'

There's a two-way street to the 'lets keep on topic,' I guess is my point. I'm happy to leave you to discussing the merits of tentacles vs flippers and the very RP relevant issue referenced by my gif, but I can't do it while you're basically calling me a hateful monster, so plz stop.

@Roz If maybe she has, she should share with the class. It's only one of the... top 3? Issues of all of MUdom. If she's magically solved it, she should probably let us know.

@Arkandel Think I've covered it responding to her. I'm happy to leave it to the topic. I'm not happy being told that I'm what's wrong with the hobby and that I'm accusing her of vile evil.

Ok, all my actual questions are now answered.

I'm glad you're enjoying continuing to contribute usefully to the thread, @Ghost

@Ghost I'm not sure I understand what samurai cop is supposed to indicate, but I guess confusion is a similar emotional reaction to annoyance?

Ok. I'm pretty sure you're more successfully derailing her thread than I am now, at any rate, but you do you.

@Ganymede Oh cool, gotta continue the derail for the sake of the hivemind pile on, right! I mean, we'd stopped talking about it and were making jokes about mermaid sex, but no, it's definitely more important you come in and go for round 2, where I'm not simply calling her evil and corrupt, but now I'm trying to make her question her own sanity? Cool story.

Re the part of your post that isn't nonsense, sure, some people might disagree. I think a lot of people don't, especially based on some prior threads on this topic. You can even reference some of the recent Star Wars ones, if you don't want to dig out the more meta oriented versions. In general, the hobby has very little faith in 'staff picks who gets to play the speshuls.' Clearly even @surreality is somewhat aware of this difficulty, given her above clarification on who gets what (that makes your whole comment pretty unnecessary and a very big derail - good work!)

And much like in real life, argumentative people on the internet lawyers casually make up their own versions of events and timelines to suit their arguments and defend their friends clients.

But I know, we have to believe you when you do it. You're a professional argumentative asshole, unlike the rest of us hobbyist argumentative assholes!

@surreality

I started typing a peacemaking version of this, but reading your post another time... I can't even begin to feel like you care about re-establishing civility. So I will be more brief:

• I am not familiar with your post history. Your post here did not include any such information.
• I support some of your stated transparency concerns.
• I was joking around with the gif and subsequent posts were an attempted return to levity. It was intended in the spirit of 'lulz, we MUers and our TS.'
• Based on everything else, you will not believe the above. I suppose the paranoid likely and reasonable alternate theory is that I was pre slut-shaming your game to defame it so no one would play there! In b4 Ghost.
• Believe what you want about my 'accusations.'
• Or, I dunno, try reading comprehension. The 'accusation' is a parenthetical, and the conclusion of that sentence is that everyone will probably be allowed to be fishmen.
• I am apparently now accountable to the posting histories of people who upvote me. Does this work in reverse? Can I upvote your stuff elsewhere, and that means you support me? (also, it means several people who dared express any kind of agreement with me in the thread are also terrible people by association, they better watch out!)
• But seriously, you're monitoring upvotes and care enough about them comment on it? Maybe take a break from the internet popularity arena.

@surreality

(Intro deleted, it was mean and I wrote it without really digging through all your points).

1. Again, that's nice. but again, I'm not familiar with your history. It makes the fact that you think I have such a hateboner for you all the weirder because I'm pretty sure we've barely ever interacted.

2. ... Ok? I mean, that bit of text seems like it belongs in a non-derail post, as it's stuff about your actual theme. I posted the gif because the thread made me think of that and I love Futurama more than probably anything ever. Some of the people who've met me IRL can attest to my 'Good news, everyone' notification sound.

3. I think the numbers stopped lining up and I'm not sure what you're referring to. My intention has never been to derail your thread, and I felt my initial reply was indeed on-topic (because again, 'I don't like fish people' seems a relevant answer to 'What fish people do you all want most?'). I disagree that I'm being disrespectful of you. If anything, you're being somewhat willfully ignorant to how a forum you spend tons of time on works. Other posters have put it better but posting here is an invitation to fairly free for all conversation, and you've surely seen it 1000 times before. You may not be asking to crowd source, but you're talking to us, so we're going to talk back, and we're entitled to our own opinions, which you may or may not find valuable or total garbage. The good news (re: your wiki) is that your wiki is not WORA 2.0 and you can set different expectations there. Beyond that, will say that I am not trolling you, though I am (at this stage) effectively trolling the people who think they're defending your thread from derails by derailing it much worse themselves. Between the two of us, this would have probably ended 2 pages back.

4. You know what, I'll admit to the first part of this one. I am paranoid about staffers being trustworthy. I totally am. I have basically zero faith in anyone who isn't a years long friend, because I've seen far more shitty behavior in the hobby than I have good. And those close friends I trust? Well, that just goes into the nepotism thing, which I know even I'm not immune to. It is exceedingly hard, even for people who are on the whole ethical, non-asshats, to tell friends no when they make small requests. But these add up and the result is a culture we're all familiar with. This is why I have a pretty hard line stance that boils down to 'features are always nepotism'. Me and Gany fought about it in another thread (she said she's OK with someone casting a MU like a play, I think that sounds like nepotistic BS too). But yeah. I have little trust. This probably fgures into the 'does not play' thing from the Meta thread, too. But all of that said... I still wasn't accusing you, @surreality, the specific person distinct from the general culture of MU-dom, of anything. Again, that sentence ends with the assumption that you will let everyone play what they want (reading!) and the paranoia is a parenthetical aside.

5. That's nice. I believe that he was upvoting me in lieu of downvoting you because that option doesn't exist and the internet is full of trolls and dicks. But creating any sort of equivalence between me and your stalker because he happens to upvote my post? Yeah, no, fuck that noise and fuck you if you're essentially likening me to some sexual predator.

6. I'm not sure I even understand this or what it's referring to. But yes, there are some accusations in the last post, where, as I made clear, I was responding to what I felt like was a total abandonment of civility on your part as well. Again, being likened to some sexual predator is pretty much universal gloves-off time, no? It's like Godwin'ing.

@surreality said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

That wasn't what I was in any way trying to imply. Dude was never any kind of sexual predator, just a very mean-spirited troll. There's a link to his trolling craziness... somewhere in scrollback at this point.

OK. I clicked through the one link you gave and skimmed a couple lines and there was something-something about rape (and his handle is shang related). I'm not about to read the post history of some random dude I've never heard of who happened to upvote me to spite some other person he doesn't like. I don't care about your drama with him! That being said, your whole 'this guy is bad and he likes your opinion so you should rethink your opinion' is dumb. Full stop. Hitler (yep, why not) liked dogs, or so I have heard. His positive view of dogs does not cause me to re-evaluate my own. It's not valid or persuasive logic and indicates a lack of ability to argue on the merits.

And quite frankly? Yes, you're annoying the shit out of me today because instead of actually getting to work on the game, I've had to spend a pile of time playing whack-a-mole addressing all of the worst case scenarios and fear-based assumptions

I haven't made you do anything, you're spending your time as you choose. If you think I'm just a troll, the proper response is to ignore me, which you've failed spectacularly at despite numerous opportunities. You've re-engaged once I've stopped at least twice (including very start of this whole thing). And if I'm 'forcing' you to address issues... sorry that the hobby has issues? I didn't create them, and I hate to break it to you but you'd have to address them at some point anyway.

you keep shooting off like you filled a potato gun with buckshot and pointed it at the thread. This is the kind of stuff I am talking about:

Hint: this is you re-opening another can of shit, just for the sake of it. You've given up on one line of argument (me accusing you of horrible corruption) and just picked another, for the purpose of... I dunno. I thought we'd actually come near civility with the last couple posts. Guess that's not satisfying for you?

...seriously. Buckshot. I could keep going here, but I think maybe you'll begin to see my point.

No, because It's seriously hyperbole.

You quote me 4 times without finding even more than 3 actual complaints. My 'buckshot' approach boils down to: 1) I don't like aliens/Cthulhu. 2) Cthlulu spawn are probably going to be most of the playerbase which takes it further away from the setting for me. 3) Don't split your population (which, again, is good advice and not a hostile criticism.) The funny thing is you've actually addressed all these issues pretty well, and if you left it to that, your thread wouldn't be such a tire fire.

This is not being defensive.

I'm sure.

It is being annoyed as hell that instead of waiting a little while to see what the thing is and how much that sucks, you seem eager to begin a bashing based on what you assume it will be and the worst aspects of all of those things. This sticks me in the position of badly explaining shit on the fly that I've already had to budget 2-3 RL months toward getting down in a draft form that I think will be ready for a rough review, and that is a shitty position to be in.

There's a reason I asked folks to not go galavanting down those roads yet: they aren't even leveled, let alone paved, there are no maps or street signs, and the best answers anybody's going to get on those subjects are going to be about as useful as the directions you'd get mumbled out in broken English in a heavy accent by a drunken old coot at the gas station who uses the places where things didn't used to be as their landmarks. (Read: good luck getting anywhere with it.)

Bash it to bits based on what it actually is with wild abandon if you want to. Seriously. Sledge at will when the actual information is available.

Slinging shit around because of what you're afraid something might be is crap, though.

Re: all of this since you're basically saying the same thing a bunch of times:

Look. I get that it's unfinished, but you chose to show off your unfinished project. You can't show it to us, and then fall back on that unfinished status as a shield for criticism. I'm not 'afraid of what it might be', I'm reacting to what I see presently in the context of my MUing experience.

Your requests are not binding on me. You really need to read @ThatGuyThere's post a few times, because it's a nice summary. You don't get to control the discussion in the way you want to control the discussion. I understand that this is distressing to you, but again that reflects more of you having an odd disconnect with the forum than me violating its norms.

Maybe the forum needs a 'No criticism' subforum? Who knows. Anyway. I'm quite willing to be done with this, as I've been many times. Maybe try not accusing me of anything new and we can leave each other alone.

@Ghost Keep defending her, I'm sure sempai will notice you.