Posts made by faraday

@rook --

@sparks said in Alternative Formats to MU:

The old Pueblo-enabled servers—and even Ares and Evennia, presently—have a design requirement that whatever they do must also be accessible via plain old boring text-only telnet.

Yes exactly. If you want to be pedantic from a tech perspective, it's not telnet the protocol that's the limitation, it's backwards-compatibility with existing telnet-based clients. Or, for short, "telnet".

@roz said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Honestly, my impression is that you believe Faraday is doing work to help encourage RP because you've experienced her stuff after the fact, but you're characterizing other discussion about new platforms as "just for the shiny."

Yeah, I mean... I got a ton of push-back early on for the things that people are now enjoying, but it all started from the same place: How to make things better both for existing players and for new players. It's all driven by real use cases. People I've spoken to and their needs. Not just "Oh hey, a new shiny tool to use". Now not everyone has the same needs, and sometimes meeting one person's needs shortchanges another's. That's just life traveling west in the tech world. You can't please everybody.

Personally, I see more people -- long-time MUSHers, not these hypothetical masses waiting just beyond some barrier - bemoaning "I just don't have time for four-hour scenes every day but I still love the MUSH environment" or "Aww man I can never make it to plots at the scheduled times" or doing G-docs RP when they can't make it online than I do people lamenting that they'll get too distracted by moving things to the web. That's not to discount or diminish the latter's point of view. It's just numbers.

@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Oops! Something has gone wrong. Please check your error logs. uninitialized constant AresMUSH::WebApp::Engine

Oops. Apparently there's a bug in the web registration. Ah, beta.

You can see a better version on the web portal prototype.

@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Let's start going through actual UI/UX exercises and proposals.

I’m with @meg that I’m a bit exhausted trying to justify modernizing 30-year-old technology. But I will indulge with one little example:

@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Consider the UI of such a game where you have a widget for every way to communicate on a MUSH. You would have to have a popup window (or whatever your UI solution is) for:

Paging - Posing (including: emote, pose, and say) - OOC talk - Places talk (including tt, ttooc, ttpose, et al.) - BBoards - IC Phones, Messengers, Missives, and whatever else your game has - Channels

It makes zero sense to do all those things separately in a web client.

• Pages/Channels/Mail become Chat like Discord/Slack/etc. One’s just public and the other two are private.
• Posing/OOC talk/Places are all just different ways to Add to a Scene.
• BBoards become a Forum.
• Grid/movement would be gone. Choosing/changing location is just an integral part of conducting a scene.

That's what I meant when I talked about a paradigm shift instead of just slapping a web UI onto the current MUSH commands.

As for the UX? You’ll probably want a chat window at the bottom/side of your screen at all times because that's so important. Forum and Scene are things you would use separate tabs for depending on what you felt like dealing with.

And oh-by-the-way nothing stops you from having several tabs for different scenes just as you’d have different windows open in your web client. Difference is - you can do multiple scenes with the same character. No more spoofing or silly OOC puppet nonsense. So many clunky things that we're required to do because of the telnet client restrictions just fall away.

@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:

And I'm pretty sure that there's lots of room for improvement on what Ares has so far, even. Helpful error messages, tips and hints, auto-calculators, ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

Oh yeah. The current CG is lame compared to what you can do with a responsive javascript framework (which is what I’m working on). Yet even that lame-o web version is a gazillion times easier than doing it in-game.

@lithium said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@lotherio It's kind of a catch 22, if we code it using different commands, then people will complain about it being new syntax and not what they're used to. If we don't, then we are not being welcoming to new players

It's only a catch-22 if we stick to the command line. That's the beauty of moving things to the web.

Setting that aside, you're right. I mean, with Ares I literally had to code everything from scratch. Pages, movement, who, bbs... everything. I could have made the syntax anything my heart desired.

But, y'know, I actually wanted MUSHers to play it, and they wouldn't have done so if I changed the syntax. They flat out wouldn't. So to @Lotherio's point - I didn't stick to the existing bbpost syntax out of laziness, I did it as a survival mechanism.

If folks would have accepted something different? I'd do what almost literally every other command-line tool out there does these days by using named arguments.

bbs post --subject Hey look at this --message This is so much more intuitive to the other 99% of the population who are not MUSHers.

ETA: I did make some tweaks to make it more approachable to new folks. Like renaming dig to build and ditching the +/@ prefixes. But even there I had to keep the old syntax/aliases for the veterans.

@rnmissionrun Literally nobody is saying that folks shouldn't learn to use the tools needed for the medium.

We're saying we need better tools.

I worked on the first color phone display and the first mobile web browser. I'm very proud of that work, but I guarantee you if you put a WAP browser or 4-color phone in someone's hands today they'd (rightly) be all: "WTF is this piece of junk? LOL people actually used this?!" Technology moves on. There might be some nostalgia involved in re-playing old Nintendo games, but you don't see people developing new stuff on that platform, because by modern standards it's woefully lacking.

@lithium said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I know in this country at least, technology is making people less intelligent, not more intelligent, if they're not spoon fed with a few clicks then they can't be bothered. I've even seen this when it comes to some gamers, where console is better for them because all they have to learn is the controller, there's no real customization, or changing response rates of the mouse, mapping macro's or key strokes, etc.

I think that attributing that all to laziness is oversimplifying. People might like console games because they're simpler, but for casual players the dizzying array of controls and options in a desktop game can be overwhelming. That doesn't mean they're dumb or lazy. It just means they maybe have better things to do than to learn all that.

Similarly, I think if you present someone with a program that is radically different from everything they've ever seen before, it's only natural that a great many will turn their nose up or be intimidated. That's true whether you're talking about keyboard users presented with a mouse for the first time or touchscreen users told to download this special app, find this mystic address, and learn these puzzling commands just to try out a type of game they may or may not like.

Like it or not, we live in a world that values good user experience. The traditional MUSH experience fails on virtually every level for a new player.

@lotherio said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly want to know, what are 'we' doing better that will lure the numerous on-line RP'ers from those places to MU. And inversely, what is it we're gaining by taking the limited number of MU'ers and trying to get them into a new environments? I think that's a design 101 idea, purpose to provide direction?

I, personally, am not trying to lure the masses to MU. What I would like, however, is to see the medium I love continue beyond another generation. I mean people can naysay all they want about how MUSHes aren't dying, but I just flat-out don't believe them.

We've limped along so far in large part because most of the community grew up with crappy computer tech. But then I look at my kids. The touchscreen generation. The mobile generation. The generation that has never seen a command-line tool in their entire life. Expecting them to download a special desktop client and learn +bbpost <title>=<message> strikes me as something approaching insanity.

Not to mention the countless times I've been approached by people wanting to make a game who can't because of the ancient technology we're stuck with. You can create an entire freaking website with a few clicks, but a text-based game requires a system administrator and programmer with significant chops. It's just silly.

So that's my direction. Enable more games to be built. Don't turn off potential new players with ancient interfaces.

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

It may be that you are right and I am just old, set in my ways and resistant to change. My opinions come mainly from twenty year's worth of trying-- with very very little success, mind you-- to get MU*ers to play on non-MUSH games.

I don't actually disagree with you there, which is why I've been very careful to make Ares as MUSH-like as humanly possible. And as you say - Arx, which is far less MUSH-like, gained traction too. So maybe people are ready for something different.

@Sunny - Yeah I think "lack of desire to prioritize" is usually the reality of "don't have time". I "don't have time" to learn Spanish, but if I spent a few less minutes a day arguing on MSB I could probably learn a little bit. Priorities

@ganymede Sorry, it wasn't meant as a criticism. I said and/or. You're just the 'or time' category

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference.

I stand by my statement based on my 30+ years experience as a professional programmer who has some experience teaching code.

As @surreality mentioned, there are tons of sites out there with good tutorials to teach you how to use Python/Ruby. Literally millions of people have used them. There are sites like stackoverflow.com where you can search for help and people answer questions for fun. And the complexity of the syntax just doesn't even compare.

And let's say you're someone like @Ganymede who lacks the time and/or inclination to learn how to code. That's fine. So you need a coder.

How many MUSHcode experts are out there? A dozen? There are tens - maybe hundreds - of thousands of Python/Ruby experts. You're FAR more likely to be able to find a programmer pal who knows one of these languages, or someone who's willing to learn.

If you're unwilling to use the out-of-box functionality, unwilling to learn to code, and unable to find a coder, then I can't help you. Nobody can.

What I can do is make it so that some percentage of games can be created with zero code (where presently even just setting the dang thing up is a technical hurdle, let alone customizing anything) and make it far easier to learn to code. The latter should, in theory, also make it easier to find a coder.

@meg said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Lol. I once showed a real coder (a man who has worked as a systems architect in C, C++, and C# and node.js and all kinds of languages for 20+ years) some MUSH code and he stared at it in horror and couldn't figure it out.

Yeah, I've shown MUSHcode to many of my colleagues and the reactions are either dumbfounded horror or hysterical laughter.

That's not a knock against MUSHCode, by the way. It was a marvelous technical achievement in its day, like assembly languages. But that was 30 years ago and times have changed.

I feel kinda bad that the thread has derailed off @tragedyjones' original question. Maybe the last few pages about Evennia/Ares should be split off into a different thread about "New MU Platforms in Development" or something? @Auspice @Ganymede @Arkandel ?

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

All of this may be true, but good games differ from one another. Your package may have all of the great features we've come to know and love, but I don't think, for example, that the developers are interested in coding up special, unique features for each game.

Of course if you want special, unique features you'll need a coder. That will always be true. But right now you need a coder even if you don't want special unique features, and that's silly.

Systemless games + Games willing to run FS3 + Games willing to run a simple "descriptive stat" system (like many comic games) ... all of these will be enabled out of the box with zero code in Ares. And that's not even counting games that can be enabled it somebody does a drop-in plugin for a new system.

And if somebody does want custom code? Unless they're already a kung-fu MUSHcode master, it's going to be way way way easier to learn the new systems than the old.

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Was just pointing out the futility of doing the same things over and over but expecting different results.

Are they really doing the same things though? Smashing the do you have a coder flowchart that has hindered the creation of games for 25 years. Making it orders of magnitude easier to learn to code, as @Tat mentioned. Creating a seamless web/wiki/game integration. These are things that, to the best of my knowledge, haven't been done before.

Naturally, any new product challenging the status quo faces an uphill battle. And yes, others have tried and failed. Does that make it futile? I don't think so, but everyone here knows my penchant for tilting at windmills

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

neither Ares nor Evennia are bringing anything to the table that we haven't had for the past 25 years (except for the ability to code MU*s in Python and Ruby

That thing that you describe as 'except for' is a big deal though. MUSHCode and C had their days, but their days are long gone.

Another thing that Ares is designed to bring to the table is a game that is fully functional out of the box, with all the systems people expect (from jobs to chargen), configurable without touching a lick of code. I haven't seen that in any other MU system, but if I'm wrong there by all means please highlight alternatives to raise awareness.

Also, do those other platforms have a built-in wiki and fully functional website with real-time notifications to and from the game? There are a lot of games out there struggling with keeping data consistent between the game and an independent wiki.

I don't think anybody's saying that the new platforms are some kind of jaw-dropping revolution. But I think it's doing them a disservice to claim that they're not offering anything that hasn't been around for 25 years.

@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Perhaps, but I don't think "shrug, smile, condescending response" as a valid way to convince anyone otherwise.

Aww come on. I was just being a smart-aleck with my friend about a comment I disagreed with. It wasn't meant to start a fight.

@thenomain I'm not trying to be obtuse here but I really don't get what you're arguing. You see "built-in interpreter" as the defining quality of a MUSH, I see "basic command set and syntax and gameplay" as the defining quality of a MUSH. We can agree to disagree about that point.

At the end of the day, AresMUSH is a MUSH because that's what I named it. That's what the documentation says. That's what the website name aresmush.com says. I'm not "leaving it up to people" - this is what it is. But at the same time, I can't stop someone from calling it someone else any more than Google can stop people from talking about "googling" something on Bing.

@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Or...dude, I don't even know what this was for.

I don't like seeing it classified as MUD-like. I think that's misleading and potentially damaging to someone who doesn't know anything about it and sees that description and might go "Eew, not for me". To someone who's not coding (i.e. 99% of the players), virtually all of the everyday commands from Penn/Tiny will work for them.

@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Ares is mostly MUD-like, but works very hard not to show it.
The built-in interpreter, that you can code from the inside, is what I use to classify a MUSH-like game.

:grins and shrugs: You're free to classify it however you want. Ares has nothing even vaguely MUD-like about it as far as I'm concerned.

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I don't think anyone here except you is calling not-mushes mushes.

Ares is AresMUSH. It's a MUSH because from a player's POV it has all the same basic functionality as PennMUSH and I didn't want to scare people off because "ZOMG IT'S NOT A MUSH". Also, I like the name.

@Lotherio ---

@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:

You could get coding permissions - in the same way someone could branch Ares and code a plug-in and then it could be folded into the main game.

That is the envisioned path for players contributing code to Ares, but I do not see it as a common situation.

Here's the thing -- if your goal is to have a fully flexible coding language at your fingertips that players and admins can use from the command line in-game? Penn/Tiny/Rhost is it. It's hard to imagine anything better suited to that purpose, and I'm not going to try.

But that model has tons of down-sides to it, from security to syntax to the sheer awkwardness of trying to code complex systems line-by-line. We've been fighting those down-sides for 30 years.

And what are the up-sides? @Seraphim73 could make a custom multi-descer instead of the built-in one for all the descs that nobody's going to read Someone else could make a custom notepad instead of the built-in one.

In my experience, the vast majority of players neither know nor care to create their own custom softcode, as long as you give them the code they need to play.

So I don't see this as a loss. Others will disagree, I'm sure.