@Glitch
Ooookay? I didn't suggest any correlation between CEO pay and company performance, only that the influence that CEO has on company performance is significantly greater than that of any single worker or group of workers of the size discussed in most layoff situations, primarily because the scope of action and influence had by either is on a completely different scale. That's not really the same thing at all.
@Luna said:
And it largely depends on where the CEOs money comes from. A pay cut for the McDonalds CEO for example won't help a single fry cook. Those are not his employees. It's a lot more nuanced than most people want it to be.
That too.
People say that a lot, @Arkandel, but it rarely comes up how much money those fat cat CEOs bring into the company. Through their connections, through their influence, through any number of things that have a vastly wider scope and impact on the bottom line than the blood and sweat of Faceless Workerbots 1-500.
I'm not trying to defend the vastly overinflated payrolls these guys bank, but the simple truth is that the work put in by any given worker, or even hundreds or thousands of workers if the company is large enough, probably barely puts a dent in the earning (or more specifically the facilitation of the ability to generate earning) power its CEO brings to the table. This can vary a lot by company, but is often enough true.
Besides which, while the CEO isn't always the owner, it is often enough that suggestions that they get rid of the CEO instead of laying people off is a bit like saying your house would always be clean if you moved out onto the street and sealed the whole thing up. It may be true, but since you're the one the thing is meant to benefit that doesn't make a lot of sense.
@ThatOneDude said:
Is the symbol thing a joke? Cause you know that version is the buddist one right?
It's Jainist, not Buddhist. Different branch of the same tree, though.
And it wasn't really a joke, no. There has been internet outrage over swastika appearing on pretty much anything, sometimes because it's an easy symbol to rage against, sometimes because OMG TRIGGERS, and those expressing such outrage rarely seem aware that what they're getting angry at is pretty much the polar opposite of anything to do with the Nazis.
They fly it because it's also, on top of being a symbol of racist pride, just a bunch of lines and colors.
I had a big post written up that I ended up not using, but it basically related directly to this: I wish we as a people would not get so caught up in allowing assholes to empower their symbols long after they should have ceased being anything but lines and colors and shapes that shouldn't mean shit.
No, a fucking flag bearing the colors shouldn't be flying over a state capitol (or on a state flag at all), but odds are pretty even in this day and age that a guy with the flag in question on his belt buckle just thought it looked like a cool belt buckle. Hate him because he's the kind of guy who wears flashy belt buckles, in and of itself an atrocity, not because you assume he knows or cares (or should care) what it once meant as a symbol.
I feel the same way about the swastika, really. Sure, it has been used as a symbol of hate, it still is, but bigots can and do adopt all manner of symbols to represent their hate. Letting them have that power well past the time when that symbol should have held any power just seems wrong. Instead we've got people on the internet crying about how shocked they were to see that the Nazis had had such an impact in India, defacing their temples and all, after seeing red swastikas painted on buildings. They shouldn't be so surprised what with violent cults springing up all over and using such outrageously offensive 'Hail Hitler' symbols like this:
Those monsters.
Wait, somewhere I got distracted by sarcasm.
Anyway. People who fly it for fucked up Southern Pride can go jump in a lake, skinheads with swastika tattoos under 'FUCK JEWFAGS' on their arms can join them, no flags with either should be flown anywhere by any US government, but I'm sad I probably won't live long enough to see the day when people stop giving the symbols of hate groups the power those groups so desperately wanted to imbue them with, by freaking the fuck out any time they see it.
@Shebakoby said:
@Rook said:
@Shebakoby Only on income EARNED in the US. I know because I filed US taxes at $0 for 6 years when living in Canada.
oh yeah, that's right, because Canada and US have a tax treaty. You still have to file the damn returns though, which are a pain in the butt. IMO way worse than Canadian Income tax forms.
If you're not in a weirdly complicated tax situation, the number of ways to do basic taxes these days, especially if your income is basically $0, is high. I use TurboTax and do the taxes for 3 to 5 people, and have for like 8 years now with no problems. Unless you're itemizing a ton of shit or have a lot of extra stuff to account for, it's pretty much a breeze.
Calling back to my last peeve, if this can even be termed a peeve: I also want to stab the people who say they'd support a government ban on the flag being used or sold, even by private entities. Just fucking kill yourselves, please. Goddamnit.
Fuck you, every single dumb son of a bitch who has made snide comments over the flag shit going on by trying to defend the South's declaration of the Civil War as not having been primarily about slavery.
Just fuck you. Right in your fucking eye socket. Hopefully until you die and we can replace you with someone less stupid.
@Rook said:
So, maybe something to think about is removing locations from any OOC commands. +finger, +where, etc. +hangouts and equivalent simply show numbers. Force people to communicate to find or arrange RP. Force people to use the hangouts to wait for happenstance scenes. Force people to be adults.
.
Unless your game is run by assholes, the Unfindable flag is available to anyone who wants it. A lot of people don't use it. So right now we've got a situation where people can remain findable until they decide they have some reason to not be findable.
This doesn't really need to be fixed. All unfindable, all findable, are both opposite extremes and there's no really compelling reason to take either. If +where was adjusted to indicate how many unfindable people were in the room (since +hangouts apparently represents some vastly overcoded weight hanging around the neck of MU*ers everywhere), it'd represent a pretty much perfect solution for everybody not ridiculously invested in either extreme.
It is actually harassment, the pages y'all are talking about. It's not a MASSIVE case of harassment, and not something I'd kick someone off a game for without repeated offenses. It's still enough of one that I'd want to sit someone down and say 'hey, just so you know, this actually isn't okay'.
I love you, I understand why you think this is the case, but no.
To me, this speaks to the bigger social idea that everyone needs to just be nice to each other, and that not being nice should get you put in the naughty corner.
People aren't always nice. They talk shit, they make inappropriate jokes, sometimes they're offensive (sometimes without meaning it, sometimes because in that moment they're an asshole), etc. Pulling them aside to shake a finger at them for not being nice generally do shit. Sure, sometimes it'll ignite a lightbulb and they'll come to an epiphany, but sometimes it'll aggravate the situation and turn some snarky offhand bullshit into actual nastiness. Most of the time they'll just nod their heads and make gestures indicating agreement, and move on. Because what the fuck, really?
"Hey, we've heard you were having a private conversation with some friends and speculating about whether Bob is ICly screwing Tammy and we need you to... stop speculating about stuff in your private conversations, because we heard from Jeff who heard from Joe who hears from Tom who heard from Mindy who heard from Michaela that you said it. Well, no, not specifically what you said but the general... just stop that."
Sure, they'll get right on that.
People are flawed, imperfect creatures, and while staff can and should draw a line in the sand about unacceptable behaviors, try to manage that shit on that level ( a level I can avoid 90% of by setting myself Unfindable ) or try to classify it as 'harassment', and you're going to create a full time job for yourself handling it, and it still won't stop anyone from doing those things.
I find the idea of going to staff about that sort of thing pretty abhorrent, really, and I'm someone who's dealt with more than my fair share of exactly that sort of bullshit. And I'm totally aware that people like Spider use exactly that sort of back-channel muttering to create the whisper campaigns she uses to get at people she doesn't like. Recognizing when that shit is getting out of hand and crossing a line, banning assholes like Spider, sure. Arbitrary staff decision because reasons, do it. Doooo it. But trying to stop the high school style whispering that is pervasive across basically every social endeavor humans put together than involves more than two people? Hah, no.
Stupid, petty bullshit is called petty for a reason, and this illusion that we can or even should aspire to a life of sweetness and light where everybody is always nice to each other is both unrealistic and undesirable, at least to me.
It doesn't prevent harassment on channel, page, @mail, or otherwise.
It pretty demonstrably does, for me, since the amount of bullshit I have to put up with whenever it's gotten turned off for whatever reason is almost completely absent when I have it on.
Even if it's just annoyingly snide "Oh you're roleplaying with so and so." or other stuff that isn't staff actionable in the least. Which it's not. As has been noted, there are plenty of ways for people to be assholes without breaking any rules or doing anything staff could step in for, and if the unfindable flag helps me cut down on having to waste my time dealing with that, it has value to me.
Player A is a member of IC Group. IC Group often meets in Location X. But Location X is unfindable, and so those people never show up as being on-grid, and Player A doesn't feel like just sitting in the room waiting for someone to come in. So Player A might not be able to join in IC Group scenes as often as htey would like because there is no reliable way to tell if someone is currently in that room.
If there's a group where the only way to join in on gropu scenes is scanning the +who for when others of said group are at said location, there are way bigger problems than the unfindable flag. Like, way, way bigger. Monstrously big.
Creating two systems that are meant to do ideally the same thing is not a perfect solution. It is the opposite of a perfect solution, it is a redundant solution that creates needless overhead.
Only if you assume that there are no reasonable causes for someone to not want to show up on the +who, which clearly you don't.
Have staff @dig you a room with the unfindable flag and just never leave it.
If my choice were between that and being forced to be findable otherwise, I suppose I would. Or rather, I'd probably find another game to play. But that's a pretty stupid line in the sand to draw.
Personally, I find +hangouts more useful than +who or +where. I'm not generally scanning for specific people (again, if I want to RP with specific people I'll page them to ask), nor is a list of names helpful at a glance. At least, not as helpful as a number.
In fact, it'd probably be the most helpful if +where showed Location > # of People > List of Names plus Unfindables. i.e.
Joe's Bar --- 5 --- Joe, Bob, Phil, Unfindable (x2)
Or whatever. Then you'd just have the one command, and people could be unfindable, and tada everybody's happy. Right? 
Alright, here's an example: Player A and Player B are hanging out at the Waffle House. Player A and Player B are both set unfindable. A couple of people decide to get together for a scene at the waffle house, because the +where shows that there's nobody there that they'll be disturbing, or because they want a quiet scene. So Players C and D show up, only to find that, lo and behold, A and B are there already. So they made a plan, got together, and then had to change that plan because A and B are using commands to bypass the code that specifically tells them if there are people at a place.
...what the fuck? You just used being findable as a method for avoiding interaction. That runs almost entirely counter to what you started with. Make up your mind.
If C and D want a quiet scene at a waffle house, and there are players already in it, copy the desc, hop outside, open a +temproom. Isn't that command pretty common on games these days?
And I gaurantee you, there's more than one Waffle House wherever your game is set.
I'm not sure that coding a second system to show where people are because people have bypassed the first system to show where people are is a legitimate solution to this. Most game have enough code and commands as it is, and as has been mentioned before, +hangouts tends to be very niche and usually inaccurate.
It's the perfect solution. Are there people in Location X? Yes/No. If yes, how many. If people are just looking for public RP, why is that a problem? If they're trying to find someone specific, they can page.
Moderated lists don't really work in a MU* community where people come and go as often as they do, and where building staff get super gung ho about removing builds from the grid (which drives me a little bit crazy). Just flag everywhere that isn't a private residence or secret/group specific meeting place public (with an attribute, not a flag, just a figure of speech) and have +hangouts show locations with people in them in descending order of occupancy. 2 people at the waffle house? At a glance, easy to say C and D don't do their scene there. After all, in your example it shouldn't matter who is at the Waffle House.
Sure, staff hates babysitting, but if it's legit harassment, we'll deal with it.
I'm pretty sure I heard that if it's legitimate harassment that a MU*ers charobject has ways of protecting itself.
On the flip side of this, I will also tell you that you're being a whiny baby, and what this person is doing is not harassment, it's legitimate social interaction and seriously stop feeling so entitled
Can't make you miserable or otherwise just be a pain in the ass to deal with, without actually violating any rules or doing anything 'legitimately' harassing. Do we have a sarcasm emoticon yet? Meh.
There's plenty of methods of communication available on a MU*, from channels to pages. I don't really feel as if anybody especially needs to be able to see exactly where I am or who I'm with via +who/+where. If they want to RP with me, they can let me know and we'll figure something out. If they want to RP in public, they can use channels or page folks or other tools. Most games I've been on have +hangouts code that show public spaces and how many people are there, regardless if any of the individuals involved are Unfindable or not.
Given the amount of high school level gossip that goes on about who's RPing with whom, whether they're in public or alone in a room (which always 100% of the time means TS, obvs), blah blah blah, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything being Unfindable all the time. Any game that thinks me being Unfindable is somehow a problem that needs fixing can go fuck itself.
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
I have said and will continue saying that a MUSH is more akin to a LARP than a tabletop, with many of the same hobgoblins. For the sanity of everyone else at the table, I shall decline to talk about those at this time.
You shut your goddamn LARPmouth. 
That is a terrible thing to say about another gaming environment. Honestly, some people.
@Silver said:
@Luna That looks a lot like a Shenis.
...suuuuure, peeing, that's what that thing is for. Just like this other thing is only a back massager. >_>
@tragedyjones said:
@Luna said:
@tragedyjones Mine too. Man I hate when my friends are all beard shamey. It's very sexist of them. Girls can do anything damnit!
They can now:http://www.amazon.com/Go-Girl-Female-Urination-Lavender/dp/B003BEDUS6
Congratulations, ladies. Now you too can enjoy the stink of urine in your bathrooms because some asshole doesn't know how to aim.
@Coin said:
@Thenomain said:
@Coin said:
Some day I will make a The Strange MU.
It would be easier to code.
It would be easier to run, too. Player STs could be allowed to make separate realms where they can run stories of the type and style they like with rules altered per in-game specifications (i.e. physics laws and stuff). While staff could concentrate on metaplot and the Strange.
There's no reason you couldn't do that in WoD, or elsewhere, really. There've been settings/systems that let you do that before. Even owod had Mirror Realms that both mages and werewolves could find/use for a similar effect.
Hell, to a point that's what functionally happens with a ton of PrPs anyway.
The general rule of thumb, though, seems to be that the less something directly relates to your day to day playing of the game's core setting, the less interested people are. I haven't read The Strange aside from glancing at a blurb, and while it seems neat, I don't know that it surmounts that basic issue. If one ST's realm has zero impact on or ties to the 'core' setting (see: complaints regarding PrPs having no impact because staff doesn't want to have to account for everything crazy prp runners throw into their stories, hand out rewards for, etc) or to other 'realms', you'll get some use out of them but interest will often peter out or not catch on.
Do you think it's possible your WoD-gaming has been tainted by the MU* playstyle after all this time? I know whenever I'm playing table-top I keep comparing things mentally to how they'd work on a MUSH.
I don't really think so. I think it has more to do with the modern setting, actually. I addressed this to my wife recently when we were discussing setting stuff, and I think that as much as people here whine about 'bar RP' or other slice of life shit, on a MU* people want that ability to slide into/play through just some normal shit. Even if it's just backdrop, like your living room while you use your ipad to sketch out a magic ritual with somebody else, or mention running around the corner to grab xyz from the store while you're afk for a bit RL. There's a pretty basic familiarity with a modern setting that underscores a lot of minor things in a lot of roleplay that historical, fantasy, etc settings just don't have.
I can technically do many of the same things in a D&D setting that I can do in a WoD one, but even then many of those things lack the fundamental familiarity. A D&D tavern isn't the same as a bar, I don't actually write on paper in RL pretty much ever outside of a tiny number of things where I have to sign or fill out a form, blah blah blah. I don't dislike those trappings, but they aren't as comfortable.
On a WoD game I can log in at pretty much any time of day and as long as there's people around I know and like to play with, we can roleplay something. Maybe it's a PRP, maybe it's just sitting around bitching about mundane shit, maybe it's arguing about supernatural stuff, maybe it's TS, whatever. On the D&D games I played at if there wasn't adventuring to be had I'd pretty much wander off almost immediately.
In tabletop, you're always there for an adventure. Or at least nine times out of ten. Which is cool for D&D games, but I'd often find myself wishing that WoD tabletop games would slow the fuck down and not just rush from one emergency to the next (barring specific stories where that was necessary, but even then, not all the time), and have some fun roleplaying being a supernatural creature in a modern world and how that actually feels and plays out.
Since this was true in the Vampire games I played even before I knew wod MUing was a thing, I don't believe it can be attributed strictly to MUing, though.
@Arkandel said:
@HelloRaptor TekSavvy is pretty good in the Toronto area, and they do offer unlimited internetz at a small extra fee, but since their normal cap is 400 GB/month I'm finding it very hard to justify paying anything at all. The guy on the phone actually didn't assume I was computer-illiterate (one of his first questions was "if I know how to do an ipconfig") but the hardest part by far was finding a freakin' paperclip to bend so I could perform a factory reset. At 7:15 am it's not the easiest task.
If you really knew what you were doing you'd already have a bent paperclip taped to the side of your modem. 
