Posts made by Misadventure

I'd be good with locking them from the grid and into RP rooms. People can choose to be exposed then.

I'm also fine with flat out removing them immediately and then applying the consequences if a straight retcon write out isn't the best choice. I imagine that most theme issues will not be on the ridiculous scale. For instance: due to my personal attitudes, racism, sexism, sexuality-ism, and "caste"-ism are in most of my settings. You can play the hero in any of those social conflicts, but be prepared. The world needs to change, and it will usually take generations. I still encourage fighting for your beliefs, and that means whatever will fight back.

Except Veganism. No Vegans in my settings, too powerful.

One discussion, asking if they expect the setting to react. Next time, the setting reacts.

I have zero interest in providing a generic do what you want place (unless that is exactly what I am providing). Why would I put any work into it then shirk when someone brought in Helper-Bot Elsa to my medieval brutality wargame?

However, attitude is a big factor in satisfaction and happiness, with attendant health benefits. So stop worrying about those people's strange to you behavior, and click "never see posts from X again".

Don't forget @forward!

Character sheets can be rated by a game system, and still just be used for narrative/RP guidelines. As long as you understand how the game rates things, and how any dice probabilities actually work, you're good.

EG, I have ability at X, a difficulty-resistance of Y, so I would normally have an N% chance to succeed. If that is a high chance, I describe it working with ease, if low, I can fail or describe several tries or that its pure luck.

Is staff policing the game that everyone plays at every MU* or are they providing the structure of a specific game experience? For the former, sure keep them out. If the latter, why are you there if you don't want to play the game they are specifically offering?

Weird. Eventual winning more or less comes with the territory, so clearly the fiction contains more than winning. Personality, mood and theme changes in a character and their setting.

It's like someone saying "I want to play a dungeon crawl, but where I am Superman" instead of saying well anything that relates to the actual hero. Comics might be a power fantasy, but I thought we outgrew that a teeny bit, eventually.

I wonder if reading some of the less fight oriented superhero RPGs would change anyone's approach? Smallville and Masks both focus on other elements while maintaining the usual kind of situations.

I think someone needs to redefine victory as "Character had interesting opportunities for expressing their character and themes, and potentially changing." Stories can be specifically about winning (overconfidence, the pyrrhic victory) and losing (the moral high ground, role of media, fights that should be lost), but that is by far not the strengths of characters with personalities and stories of their own.

Dice are by far not the only way to make decisions be other than whim and petulance.

Bidding, hand/trump building, deck building, resource/outcome trading, resource use, asymmetric goal setting, asymmetric resolution are just a few, and each comes in many forms.

It's not all I win/lose, and people would do much better to see both their source material and their own enjoyment outside that false dichotomy.

There are usually big risks being taken on most or all sides of a conflict in cyberpunk type fiction. There is a lot of daring going on, and not just the corporations are betting with the lives of powerless citizens. Runs aren't supposed to be dungeon crawls for "more loot and xp".

@Coin So how far do we take this beyond stating "I'm not trying to be condescending"?

Am I lying? Am I unaware of my own intentions? If I say something in a way I don't feel is condescending, what more can I do than say "No condescension intended"? There was even a please. Once that has been said, either you decide I am a liar, or you'll have to re-read my words without the assumed condescension.

Here is a real guide to any level of disdain or dislike I have for things on a forum: I do not reply any longer. I scroll on by. Mind, that can also be frustration, boredom, lack of focus. Even hyperbole is a method of trying to communicate.

i care about solving problems. I do not care at all for putting people "in their place" or feeling better than them. I care about communicating my thoughts, concerns, ideas, criticisms. That's it.

Even this reply, if I thought arguing how to convey intent online, or discuss it with you, or in public, was not worthwhile, I just wouldn't. I even go so far as to assume you feel the same way, but I don't bet on it, cuz I can't read your mind from here.

At some point I may return and reread Wizz's post and see if I have anything else I think might bridge our mutual understanding gap, if there is one even. It may come down to taste, and what one has optimism for, which I don't think anyone either of us wish to attack in the least.

At this point we're running in circles. We do not agree on one thing: playing through movies events. I say not ever, and that you can't set it up to go anywhere without making decisions that decide where it will go before hand, save that it could spiral off into mediocrity. (BTW, I suddenly though hey you could use the Blades in the Darkness RPG, with its countdown clocks for things that are going to happen in the Star Wars conflicts (a planet blows up, the plans get the attention of the imperium, the plans get to the Rebellion, etc)(double parens, yay!)).

Best starting point for the Star Wars Death Star I threat would be after every engineer fails to notice their glaring mistake (that rebels can spot in days/hours, and an imperial combat officer can spot inside 15 minutes while "under fire"), and the Death Star has some critical weakness that a daring plan can take advantage of.

Period.

Don't give it to Leia. Don't have that Star Destroyer know where that data is. Without the canon characters, well sure the rebellion has no way to defeat the station, but the Imperials also don't know where the rebel base is ("This was too easy").

There you go.

If you like I can give you the stats for the death star and the attack and defense forces, and the difficulty of the shots being taken and someone can game it out to see how much choice there is, and how much the dice help. Everyone loves the D6 Star Wars rules, and if not the new ones could be used.

Shortest version: lay out how you will game-ify this to meet the needs of more than the one player who massively gets to decide what happens.

Tell me what game rules will not fall extremely to one side or the other if you play round by round, roll by roll, for this one, hugely important to the setting event. Remember, those players will be anywhere they want to be, on a moon sized map. They have 15 minutes. It has to go with the rolls. It has to go with their choices of insertion point and timing.

Or just go ahead and make the place, and play through the movie events. Hope ... what... where to start? "As an engineer, i min max my troubleshooting skills and make the exhaust port a corkscrew cuz heat don't care. about straight lines." Lets hope the droids make it through that hallway. Let's hope the escape pod isn't vaporized. And so on. (The Battle of Yavin IS a great binary because either the Rebellion there survives, or it does not. Then add in which characters make it, and if the Death Star does.) And let's hope that three dozen players think this is so cool that some random dice decided if anything close to the Star Wars story happened for the Star Wars MU* they want to spend time on. Good luck with that. You just can't make a set of game choices that will maintain authority to decide something that big via simulation minutia. (Never tell me the odds.")

I'll stick with avoiding the canon story events first hand.

If none of that makes sense, then don't worry about it. I didn't design the game in question, and I am fairly sure no one wants to play in any of the alternate settings I have mentioned. Also, please don't read my personal feelings or attitude into things, and I will do the same for you. If I am trying to be condescending, I will let you know. If you hear condescending without it being sent, adjust your reception.

And IS the whole point of RPing getting to replay through a specific story, a specific scene from one of dozens of stories in a place with thousands of stories possible? Is that the whole point? I don't think so.

ETA: Oh, for what I think is a really good example of working with canon material and letting players still have their own fate, look at Pendragon. Plenty of discussion on whether to use what parts of the Arthurian stories in your adventures. Also plenty of mechanics to back up that the realy really hard tasks are indeed really really hard to do unless you are completely stacked to do well at them. Think multiple checks to pass an evening, and have you have to make all checks across three evenings. Good stuff to think about).

@Wizz said:

explicitly set the plot to occur alongside the events of the movies

I wouldn't do this. I would approach this like some approach time travel. You can be near events, but the end result will be the same. Better, you'll be somewhere else, where your stakes can matter to you and not affect the core canon at all.

Why do I object so much? Because Star Wars, a cinematic heroic arc, depends on an endless string of events to arrive where they do, with massive stakes. I don't care if Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen die, or have to go into hiding, or were Vaders hidden babysitters and the bodies were locals meant to disguise their withdrawal. That has as little or as much at stake as you wish to create.

However, trying to lay out a game that will try to play through the Battle of Yavin is foolhardy. Do you give everyone middle of the road rolls, so its pure luck if they manage to defeat the Deathstar? Do you give them awesome stats/Force Points so that they recreate it at will? Either you basically roll a a die and hope for that natural 20, or you are just fooling yourself. Why so binary an evaluation? Because, either you destroy the Death Star in time, or you don't. Using a random system along the lines of D20/D&D etc, with movement rates, a map your players sorta know, and a zillion random rolls, I am 95% certain it will always end the Rebellion. The most exciting option there is not "Hey look I didn't do as I said I would and cover my squadron, I blew up an extra gun tower and now there is no Rebellion", but at best the end of the Death Star and the Rebellion.

It's such a binary for the entire setting. if you want the Rebellion to be trashed and take out some/most/all the canon characters, I see that better as a choice of story background, not some random rolls and effectively random player decisions. Unlike WW2, that particular moment is massively personal with galactic consequences, and no way to make a satisfying game out of it. Either you're going to fail, or you've been given your successes, and now everyone else has to deal with your personal choices as the basis of the entire thing they came to play through.

How is one players decisions backed by random dice and a system stacked either for failure or success better than one Staffers decisions?

I am all for player created content and consequences. I am part of the camp who doesn't think we should come to an agreement about what will happen, but I do favor looking at things above the round by round random dice rolls to create a coherent direction. That's the point of game design, a coherent direction, and since I want dozens of players to spend their time playing in and around and about these events, I'd prefer it have a direction too.

@wizz I answered the question already. If you are only speaking of this specific MU*, I'd say don't bother with playing through the story that's already established. Again, whole galaxy of action, with years of undefined events to play through. I think it is a poor choice to allow the canon character, in the canon events for RP.

Put another way: You are Luke. It's down to you, Biggs, and Wedge. You have time for one run on the exhaust port. What do you do differently that is such an amazing expression of your creativity? Do you demand Wedge stay with his injured ship? Spend your Force points to save Biggs somehow? Ignore the idea of using the Force when suggested? Maybe not spend any Force Points on making that shot? Turn on Vader to finish him now? Fly away to to fight another day? WHAT DO YOU DO THAT IS SO DAMN IMPORTANT? You've got how many years to RP whatever you like before the Battle of Hoth, or you could off Leia, let Han and Chewie go off with their money and not prove themselves, and so on. There is a story there that drew people, why alter it?

I cannot, in all seriousness, think of why I would let a player decide on the course of the entire setting that has drawn players in the first place. If I wanted an altered timeline, I would design it for its story value, announce it ahead of time, let players know that whatever will be different. I'd rather have players vote from offered choices and their own suggestions so design can matter for the long run, than hope the players will randomly prove that dice and their own designs will do anything coherent for everyone elses benefit without them being handheld constantly.

I do think playing the canon characters isn't a good idea. I do think allowing for more Force users is a good idea. If I was doing anything with Star Wars, I'd either change things up explicitly and with purpose, or find a place for my players to do their own thing, where they can affect the course of events, live or die by their own choices, and so on.

Perhaps it would help to realize that since this is a Shout thread, i don't feel required to restrict myself to this one games approach, but rather to address wider questions related to it AND other possible places.

@Wizz Why? Because if the definition of the RP freedom needed is to alter the set story, which for me is only what is on screen, then I feel you are either very oversensitive to how something that is on the far side of the galaxy is affecting your RP, or you want to specifically alter that canon. I have little interest in catering to those approaches.

The entire Rebellion is not on that moon.

@Arkandel I go by what was shown. They managed to add into things without violating my expectations in both the Emperor's Hand(s), and the extra apprentices in The Force Unleashed. They also have years leading up to the destruction of Alderaan and after to play through. It would be lk e saying you are inspired to played WW2 because of Band of Brothers, but you can't in fact imagine anything else worth playing near/altering with your story then the plots of that show.

If folks wanna play the timeline where the Death Star I or II survived, and the Skywalkers were wiped out, or all turned to the Dark and rule theGalaxy and Father, Son, Daughter, Nieces and Nephews, go for it. Wanna do all Skywalkers one generation later as a mix of Star Wars and Birthright, great. I don't see the value of interrupting the heroic arc of a few canon characters to make the players feel special. If you can't play without supplanting Luke or Elsa, Elric or Lynn Minmei, Frodo or Lay de Winter, I don't see the point of trying to make that work for an entire MU* worth of players. They don't have the cinematic sized Force Point bank to make it happen.

There is an entire galaxy of events to play through without needing to mess with the Skywalkers.

If you feel that being unable to destroy The Emperor, or stop either Death Star from being destroyed, is to restrictive on your RP plans, that tells me a lot about what your actual goals are, and I am not sympathetic.

No one makes you read their posts, or read this forum. No one is claiming a right to your time.

Block would be convenient. Unless there is something we users could do to get that function installed, this is just whining that is wasting my time.

@FiranMEH said:

Apparently some give a fuck, you can message me to connect.

How would anyone know who you were, to know they'd want to connect with you now?

As a RPG topic? Or what?