Posts made by Nightshade

I've made my points, you can choose to ignore them but player interest will show what's true.

@tinuviel said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@surreality Also RfK collapsed under the weight of it's owners ego and self-delusion in a cult of personality.

Them grapes are mightily sour, m'lord. No, it collapsed when the owner got overwhelmed by the workload and disappeared.

@tinuviel said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@nightshade There are plenty of games that aren't Arx.

Do they also have ~400 players (aside from sex mushes)? Why not? Are they imploding because of too many players being interested?

It might be nice to have multiple games, but with skilled and interested coders and weavers of story dropping out of the hobby like flies owing to reality stepping in, it's not something we can really demand.

I'm one of those who left and I'm saying why, instead of just disappearing and not bothering. Might be good to listen, if you don't want to keep playing with the same dwindling, incestuous circle of people.

This is Mildly Constructive, and you're acting like a petulant child. "I demand this, I want that." You've offered your ideas, and others have disagreed with you, or asked for further explanation. Present your ideas without getting defensive and abrasive and you may be taken more seriously.

Frankly, I've mostly given up on mushes and mushers, because this same problem has persisted through the hobby over almost a decade. So I simply don't care anymore - listen or don't. I vented my frustration, with some fairly constructive advice and a different perspective. If truly nobody shares my frustration, then that's pretty sad.

At some point in time before Haunted Memories, I staffed and helped create a lords and ladies game, as a complete newbie. This was my second mush ever. As most of the staff was new, we tried hard to be inclusive and not jaded, but we had absolutely no idea how to make our game functionally fun. In essence, we had created a sandbox for the theme, and it always bothered me and I kept feeling like I failed the game.

If I managed to figure this out almost a decade ago, as a total newbie, then what the hell is wrong here? How many new players try out mushes and just leave, for the same reasons?

@tinuviel said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@nightshade said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Wouldn't it make more sense to create several such games, so that players are more evenly distributed across them

That's not how that works. We're people, not datapoints you can shift around.

It works by offering different themes so that people don't have to shoehorn themselves into Arx if they don't enjoy lords and ladies (or they enjoy something else more). Obviously, the redistribution of players would happen organically through people's different interests.

@thenomain said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@nightshade said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

As far as affecting the setting, I’ve never needed tools for that, just permission from staff.

This is a sandbox. Make your own fun and leave staff alone.

...What?

Do I have to spell it out? It's tedious and I didn't think people are that dumb, but okay.

If a game is advertised as a sandbox (directly or indirectly), there is no sense in asking staff for any sort of help in "making your own fun." Which is the case with most games, ever since people concluded metaplots/staff-run plots shouldn't be a thing anymore.

If the game is advertised as "make your own fun" then the staff is just janitors. They won't support story or help you affect the world. In fact, they will do their best to get rid of you, unless you're their close friend. Maybe they'll approve your PrP once they make sure you won't do anything too creative or fun.

So the game becomes fractured into sandboxes of separate groups of people, instead of a shared world. What one group does to affect the world doesn't propagate to the other groups. Therefore, trying to affect the world feels pointless, which makes it feel pointless to play.

This is particularly acute when we talk about vampire spheres. In a sandbox, there's absolutely nothing to support their theme - political, occult, whatever you choose. Not in a way that propagates their actions to the rest of the game. The really dumb thing is that there are functional systems for more than just social play, in those LARP-oriented books. You wouldn't even have to reinvent the wheel, just apply it. There's a reason why they wrote those for settings with lots of people, unlike a small tabletop group. Because vampire doesn't work otherwise.

If you're complaining that WoD games end up being social MU*s with RPG elements, give them other elements

I don't think you know what I was complaining about, no. I can with absolute authority say that "do something different" is easy to say but hard to assure, especially if players are going to default to the same ol' same ol'. I've seen many games use that default as the basis for their systems, which makes sense to me, but saying, doing, and succeeding are three widely different things.

RfK. Arx. How come players haven't defaulted to bar RP there? Cause they have shit to do!

You were complaining that players always ask for the same old thing, which rubbed me wrong because I've spoken out time and again that I want something different. Not only I, but other players have obviously spoken with their feet, flocking to the games that aren't the same old thing. (If you're wondering about my adversarial and aggressive tone, this sums up why.)

So fuck your absolute authority. Arx. RfK. Two examples that clearly speak differently.

Or not, keep making sandboxes that fail to engage.

... What? Darkwater: Engaging. Fate's Harvest: Engaging. Some people find
Reno engaging.

Yes, some people. Meanwhile RfK died under the avalanche of interested players. Meanwhile, there's ~400 people on Arx. Let's not wonder why and what the difference might be.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create several such games, so that players are more evenly distributed across them, and there's more variety of settings and themes to choose from? Instead of having RfK implode from too many players, or Arx losing staffers because they just don't enjoy a game with such a huge population.

Wouldn't that be a better thing for MUSHdom?

So I'm wondering what conversation you think I'm having, but I don't think it's the same conversation that you're having.

That just means you didn't even consider what I've written. It doesn't fit what you already know, so you dismiss it.

I could simply not understand the conversation you're having, but as of now I don't find it engaging and so I'm disengaging.

Keep doing what you're doing (again, general you), I'm sure players avoid those games for totally silly, stupid reasons.

By no means bother to listen to a different perspective.

@thenomain said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. If the setting doesn’t engage, then why even log in?

I don't. I haven't in a long time.

As far as affecting the setting, I’ve never needed tools for that, just permission from staff.

This is a sandbox. Make your own fun and leave staff alone.

The tools make this easier, and thus more time effective, and thus more likely to be followed though, but it starts with someone saying “yes”. After that, I’m free.

Staff needs to be actively engaged in making their game fun, and needs to have tools that allow both players and staff to achieve that.

If you're complaining that WoD games end up being social MU*s with RPG elements, give them other elements. Let me guess, you've only ever made them as social games, without any tools that would help them be otherwise? So why are you full of yourself, complaining about it? Make a different goddamn game.

Mind you, I appreciate the hard work anyone puts into making games (I certainly have nothing against you personally), but it's time this attitude was kicked to the curb. Or not, keep making sandboxes that fail to engage.

@calindra said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@nightshade Find another game that enables you to do all these things with the right tools.

That's the point, games should be made with that in mind.

What are you going to scene about if the setting is boring (without inherent conflict), and the game gives you no tools for affecting the setting and other players in a meaningful, productive way?

@thenomain said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

But if all people want to play are Social MU*s with RPG elements, then why bother making anything else?

Why would a WoD mush have to be a social one? RfK was political, with tons of risk-like minigames to play. That was a success - the main thing it lacked was a hard population limit. At 30 characters it would've thrived beautifully, and it was exactly what was missing in mushdom. The answer is/was right under your nose.

Since Arx has about 400 players or something, I would say it is also what mushdom was missing. Look at what players love and flock to, then do it well.

@thenomain said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Why shouldn't I keep making WoD games until the end of time?

You wouldn't have to keep making them if you make a good one. In order to do that, it would help to check what the previous ones have been missing. Have your cake and eat it.

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Here's a good website that lists the effects and scientific studies on it: https://examine.com/supplements/ashwagandha/.

@admiral said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:

The last I heard, they were moving the game to Miami and keeping it 1e. I don't think it will last long.

To be honest, it's the kind of game that can linger on forever. Just remember the painful death bed of Haunted Memories. In some ways Fallcoast is the undead remnant of The Reach, and as such I can see it going virtually indefinitely.

There's usually a need for this kind of "bus station" metropolis archetype game in the hobby, and some game is going to end up fulfilling that role.

@auspice I figured it's good to share the info anyway. I thought it'd be a significant downgrade in quality from the Bamboo, but was pleasantly surprised. (It's actually quite a lot better, and has higher pressure sensitivity.)

@auspice said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

tbh if I could afford a tablet, I'd probably do more art. The last time I had one (a cheap Wacom years ago), I actually loved working with it. Somehow I 'connected' better with working digitally than I do physical tools. It might be that ease of fixing mistakes, maybe? I'm not sure.

Try a Huion. Much cheaper, and the quality of the one I have rivals the old Wacom Bamboo.

I suppose that's why Haunted Memories was such an unsuccessful niche game that didn't attract any players.

Or why RfK didn't attract so many players that it imploded.

Fuck trying anything new, right? Where's the next smalltown Maine or Las Vegas game? Come on, read me the same story again mom.

Yeah, I think this hesitation is why we've had a slew of boring, setting-less, theme-less WoD sandboxes over the last few years. You can be afraid that players won't engage with your game but what does it leave you with? If you suck your setting and theme dry of anything that might require a modicum of effort?

@skew said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Then I noticed lights flickering in my office, which is sort of down the hall from the rest of the house. I went to investigate, and all the lights went off in there. So I went to get a flashlight, and soon as I brought the flashlight into the room, it also flickered and shut off. Then the darkness started to spread room to room and consumed my whole house.

When I actually woke up, I had to go check on the whole house, check on the family, etc etc.

Fun stuff.

I have variations of that same dream as a recurrent nightmare. Lights slowly fading away, or flickering off, the light switch stops working or only works intermittently before it dies. Then darkness comes in and in the darkness there's terror.

Would be interesting to know if this is an archetypal dream, and what it might mean. Obviously, I have tons of theories but nothing that fits perfectly.

Babylon Berlin

@tanyuu said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

@nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

What I'm saying is, you can sit on your high standards and never get your work off the ground, or you can get the wheels turning through imperfect means. At least this is my personal experience, and what worked out for me. I suppose your mileage may vary, but I hope this perspective helps someone.

For certain situations, I'd agree, if it was due to circumstances, the client, or because it's something an artist feels is a good deal in other ways. What I often see is where it's someone pricing themselves below minimum wage out of the idea that 'this is normal'. Work can be cheap and fast, cheap and good, or fast and good, but it can't be all three at the same time.

Oh, I completely agree. The last sentence is also why I don't worry about underpaid work affecting professionals. A client will get burned if they expect that to work, and next time will understand why it's worth paying a professional.

Yes, people price themselves below the worth of their work, and I think part of the reason is the confused connection between self-esteem and financial reasoning.

I suppose there's a reason why undercharging and dumping prices is a reality of the business world: it works. If someone shows up in the market offering same quality for lower prices, they're suddenly taking all your clients. But they can't viably continue to provide that kinda quality for that price, nor will they want to. So these things are a blip on the radar and should be regarded as such. It does suck when it happens, but the market is dynamic and shit keeps changing.

This can be a thing if we're talking, say, retail. It's one thing to dump prices when you're selling extra stock of a mass-produced item, or when you're trying to stand out from listings in retail. If I remember right, a retail store bought those items at manufacturing cost, so if they sell below the retail price, they still make their money back.

Actually, this is a thing in so many other areas of business and industry, like outsourcing production to China, helpdesk or programming to India, etc. However, the balancing of fast/cheap/good still applies - you get what you paid for and have to work with less than ideal results, most of the time.

However, for a personal commission, there's no way to spread the cost of an item around. If I draw someone's OC, I can't really sell prints of it, or sell it to someone else as a cover for their magazine.

No, but unlike retail items, you can use your past work to leverage future work. "I've already drawn 50 OCs, as you can see. I can easily do this, but my price is so and so." Of those 50 OCs you might have 10-20 who bring you more business through word of mouth.

@tanyuu said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

A commission to someone for cheap isn't going to get anyone's foot into any door. It just gets me recommended as the artist who'd be willing to do it for cheap.

It does build up your volume of paid work, which can be important when you're applying for a more serious project. I suppose it depends on your medium and industry. It also depends from case to case. Will this underpaid project look good in my portfolio? Then hell yeah, I'm doing it. If there's some tangible benefit to doing the job, like having to pay rent, then yeah. Again it's about flexibility.

I still don't see the problem with bad word of mouth, since you can put a stop to that with one word: no. Actually it's a benefit to get the word out that you are doing commissions at all. You might get someone hooked in for the price, who will later give you more work (once they see they can rely on you to deliver what they want). Maybe the work this particular client wants is super easy for you to do. You never know. Any word of mouth is good word of mouth, especially when you can fend off the undesirable pricing assumption with just... saying something. This is how you build up a client base and promote yourself.

What I'm saying is, you can sit on your high standards and never get your work off the ground, or you can get the wheels turning through imperfect means. At least this is my personal experience, and what worked out for me. I suppose your mileage may vary, but I hope this perspective helps someone.

I mean, this view comes from someone who is a perfectionist. I had to learn to start small and very much imperfect, if I wanted to get anywhere.

I suppose there's a reason why undercharging and dumping prices is a reality of the business world: it works. If someone shows up in the market offering same quality for lower prices, they're suddenly taking all your clients. But they can't viably continue to provide that kinda quality for that price, nor will they want to. So these things are a blip on the radar and should be regarded as such. It does suck when it happens, but the market is dynamic and shit keeps changing.