Posts made by surreality

Random family mandatory fun for the holidays included a trek to a big dinner hosted at a local mansion-turned-event venue.

It is reputedly... haunted. Whatever, but we cheerfully chatted with the staff about it, including the venue manager -- and they were super happy to share stories, instead of just pretending that it wasn't a thing. (This was far more engaging than chatter with relatives I barely remember about their current crop of ailments.)

We spotted a legit secret door (it isn't super hidden, but nobody else amongst the kinfolk spotted it until we pointed it out) and they even told us where it went, why it was there, and what had been on the other end of it before the place was renovated. (Now, it just leads to a storage room in the cellar.)

I love it when what seems like it's going to be a boring session of mandatory fun instead becomes what would make a fantastic setting for an episode of Scooby Doo.

@nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

I also thought it would be useful to share my perspective, since it might be helpful and refreshing to someone trying to break into the art world. Don't need to repeat my mistakes if you can learn from them.

(First, thank you.) This I agree with. If someone is looking for a 'foot in the door' opportunity? Yeah, I even said -- coolness. Go for it.

There is some damage that can be done by this, still, though. Partly this is the whole 'customer inexperience' problem. "I paid $100 for this the last time when I got a similar thing from someone else, WTF you want $600?" If I heard one more time about how somebody's cousin would make it for less as an attempt to get me to drop a price -- and let's be real, they would never actually be asking the cousin to do it, it's almost always a request for the thing in hand right now at less than cost... it's one of those 'if I had a nickel every time' issues, I could retire now.

Photographer friends deal with this constantly. I dealt with it in jewelry all the time and still do. (Jewelry has the added bonus of people assuming that your labor is completely free, profits are not a thing, and they are literally just paying for nothing but the raw materials as though they were buying a bag of beads and metal and gemstones; this is very ugh.) And so on.

I did end up with a lot of jobs based on something I started just because it looked cool. I'm just not a person who does things by half measures pretty much ever. Dyeing? Went to a class. My teacher had me selling with her at shows in under a year and could easily have made more than my husband at his more traditional job inside a year. (Health went tits up.) The 3D texture stuff I did, from first 'eh, I'll give it a shot' to 9 months in, I was a top seller in at the premiere venue for that particular sub-genre of 3D. Hell, I've had weird art jobs. Most of them came about due to working to learn one really well while still doing another, and a lot of people do this.

My best -- and I mean best -- teacher was in illustration. For that group, at least, I was his pet example because I'm obsessive re: level of finish (read: anal-retentive perfectionism) and that's what most other folks lacked. (A lot of folks I went to school with half-assed it between parties, and frankly, that shit's never gonna work even if someone does it for 20 years. Whether somebody goes to school for it or studies independently, 'give a shit' is a required trait.)

He was very successful; he's worked for MTV, did one of our US team designs for the Olympics in China, worked for a number of well-known national brands, etc. He's the pinnacle of 'has to turn more work down than he accepts', and dude was amazing. Work was amazing, dude was amazing.

Dude also sat me down at the portfolio review at the end of the year, and grumped in my face about how while I was his best student that year (and dude also taught at Pratt, so holy shit, I turned purple), I should really be doing something else, because illustration very visibly made me miserable, and the thing I'd handed him as a fill-in project for a week I missed (which was in another fringe media I was just hail mary'ing would count) is what I should be doing, because, in his words, "This is the only thing you've ever handed me with a smile on your face."

So it's layered, and it's weird, but there's actually quite a bit that's relevant.

(I did end up diving into that other thing for a few years, and did weirdly well, but it didn't stick because twenty-something chicks with technicolor hair and a customer base made of rich blue-haired old ladies just doesn't quite click in some profoundly fucked up ways. I still do it now and then as a 'because I love it' thing, just never commercially, even though that market has changed drastically in the past 20 years and the current customer base looks one heck of a lot more like me these days.)

@ixokai Condescendingly asserting that somebody lives in a fairy land if they have a different professional experience is pretty insulting, but YMMV.

ETA: Talking as though s/he is the sole voice of experience on the matter is also pretty obnoxious, because there are actually a number of professional artists posting here. Again, YMMV, but I've been working professionally in the arts for a long damn time now, in, as stated, a variety of media. Some things? Yep, went precisely as he describes: pick up something as a lark and within a year, holy shit, it's my job. That's not the only way even that experience goes down, however. The steadfast refusal to accept this is even possible is head-desk-worthy.

Beyond that? Different media deal with different issues. Some of the attitudes described can fuck with some media more than others.

@nightshade You mistake me for someone stupid enough to take that bait. You'd be wrong about that, too.

@nightshade Yeah, this is really not even worth responding to. You can keep insulting me if you want -- y'know, outside the Pit where that shit actually belongs -- but you keep missing the point and clearly refuse to engage in anything even resembling self-examination. That you keep compounding one erroneous assumption on top of the next suggests it's not remotely productive to take time away from show prep to further attempt to engage with you.

@nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

You will never get professional work for not-professional prices. So it does not have a detrimental impact on actual professionals. I know that I was not capable of delivering professional quality when I was starting, and there's still tons of people who do it much better than me. I'm not upset about the clueless beginner who cuts down prices because I don't compete with his quality of work.

You speak for your own experience here and are extrapolating it to everyone else as though it's universal.

It's not.

Sorry for your ego, but I will speak out when I see damaging attitudes. If you don't understand this perspective, then I have to wonder what fairy land you live in, and when I can move in.

My ego's just fine.

Your view on this is colored by your own experience, and again, it is not universal.

You tried to jump into things, apparently, as a clueless beginner, which is not the way everyone does things. The fairy land I live in is one in which some of us actually bothered to get really fucking good at what we do before ever dreaming of asking for a single dime to cover materials, let alone the rates we should be getting -- or possibly ever even showing it to anyone in the first place.

So, again, stop universalizing your experience and slapping everybody else in the face with it like we're all ignorant of reality, because that's as ignorant as the blind adherence to 'you must charge or you're a horror'.

I also dislike the oh-so-common ganging up on someone on MSB just because they deigned to post something.

Have fun with that lance, Don Quixote.

@nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

I have to wonder if people have actual experience breaking into art as their day job.

Yes. In a variety of media.

Undervalued work like this is sometimes the foot in the door that you desperately need.

And if somebody's a novice, or does it as a hobby alone for free because they enjoy it, cool. If they feel inclined to do something pro bono or at a discounted rate because they like the idea or want to do a friend a favor, also cool. If they want to take a low payment for exposure and promotion, cool. A lot of this does actually have a detrimental impact on professionals, but there is a level of 'it isn't on us to control what other people do because they want to be doing it' to suck up and deal about.

Otherwise, don't assume that somebody voicing an opinion is a babe in the woods just because this discussion isn't happening on a professional art forum of some kind.

@sockmonkey Definitely try to talk with your landlord if you can. That there's someone in another building they're giving grief, who sounds like they would happily also provide an account of some kind, can only help here.

Even if they don't leave, it is possible that word from the landlord re: harassing their neighbors and people in neighboring buildings is not something that will be tolerated, and they'll chill out. If not, or if they start hassling him/filing complaints based on 'was walking in the apartment after 9pm OMG THE HORROR!!!' I have a feeling he'll toss them out on their asses post haste for bothering him.

@aria The double 'fuck that' is that I swear to fucking gods this trend surfaces specifically whenever the last 'staple' shirt in some you-always-need-it color wears out. Like, the generic black mock turtleneck, or whatnot. When the previous one dies? All that shall exist will be things made of so many straps and extraneous buckles or 'WHY?!' fishnet insets it'd give a Hot Topic mall goth pause.

@arkandel ...and the guitar dude should be weighing the idea of braining one of the thugs with the guitar, but... but... he loves that guitar.

Yes, this. There's awesome story stuff any of these people could do in the scene but rarely does it have anything to do with their specific snowflake skill.

@tinuviel I think of 'running a thing' as any given scene, rather than running a game, so that's probably why I was all... 'wait, huh?'

There are also some asshats who really do think every scene should have something to cater specifically to their snowflakism, which is... just not fun to deal with, but it's fair to say they are absolutely self-important idiots.

@tinuviel Oh, I don't disagree that there should be plots that suit their niches. Or even that they should have a chance to be useful in a scene like that in some way (just not necessarily the way that is their fancy specialization).

It's the 'every scene should feature an opportunity to showcase their speciality by virtue of them showing up' interpretation that made me scratch my head, since folks like this absolutely do show up to various and sundry scenes on the regular. Like, more commonly than not, even.

@tinuviel I don't know if the thread has just come full circle here (re: some concepts don't work well in this medium and should potentially be restricted), or if we just agree or disagree really strongly.

Let's say I have a scene posted for 'it's a normal day at the diner when two thugs show up and try to rob the joint', and Giles, the sniper, the seamstress, and let's say someone specializing in playing guitar, and another who is a crime scene tech are the ones who sign on to show up.

Are you suggesting that each of these characters should reasonably have a chance to demonstrate their primary concept skill in this scene or someone is a failure as an ST? (Sniping, occult research, tailoring, playing guitar, and investigating a crime that hasn't yet occurred?)

See, I agree that everybody in a scene should have a chance to do something useful and have a turn in the spotlight.

I'm most emphatically not on board with the idea that every scene has to be adjusted beyond a reasonable point to showcase everyone's conceptual focus snowflake factor.

Or are you suggesting that these concepts being approved with a laser focus that renders the characters useless outside that one task is idiotic and that people shouldn't be creating one-trick pony characters? (On this, I would agree.)

@tinuviel I'm on a yes/no on this one. Yes, you can pretty easily find something for them to do. Sometimes, realistically? It's gonna be 'find a secondary skill to focus on', like driving the getaway car/etc.

The concept of a sniper typically relies on knowing a target is going to be at a certain location at a certain time and taking them out, or in defense of a specific position/ground to be held against attackers.

In my experience, very few scenes on a game are structured that way. Many consist of '...and in the course of a seemingly normal evening, OMFG SHIT JUST GOT REAL.' That doesn't leave a lot of room for snipers to be snipin'.

This is no different from being on a game in which people who translate ancient lore or research the shit out of creepy weirdness are a thing. Not every scene is going to give them a moment to use that specialization, and it shouldn't. Giles McBuffyTrope is not going to be Mr. Useful Skill At The Ready in a scene where the group wanders into the midst of a gangland shootup, or the coffee shop gets robbed -- and, frankly, neither is the sniper as a sniper (though they'll likely be more useful since they know how to generally operate a firearm in general as well).

So, yes, it's possible to give them something to do that plays to their strengths -- for instance, Giles McBuffyTrope might, with his understanding of symbolism and anthropology, recognize some element of whatever the gang's logo is from generic art or cultural history and know, 'Oh, these dudes are sporting a reference to Norse culture that's big with Neo-Nazis', even if the usefulness of that info's going to vary. Similarly, Ms. Sniper Be Snipin' would need to be pretty damned good at situational awareness, and may make the best lookout in the group, taking advantage of her well-trained perception... just not her snipin'.

Throwing in something for someone to snipe from the rooftops, though, is as unrealistic and unreasonable as deciding that suddenly the gang just has to be a group of supernaturally-affiliated cultists just because Giles showed up and needs something to do, or the character who specialized in being a seamstress needs a chance to give Grouchy McBikerchaps a tux fitting.

@sockmonkey I would threaten to take tap dancing lessons if she doesn't can her entitlement pronto. Perhaps decide I just had to learn the tuba late in life. Develop an unhealthy worship of dubstep. Learn the macarena. Just happen to have a tic that involves only being able to self-soothe after confrontations with neighbors that requires perfectly bouncing and catching a hi-bounce ball 300 times, despite always screwing up and having to start over on bounce 299...

...or put on porn with a glass to the floor to hear how much complaining is going on about me having sex whilst giggling madly.

I would definitely be complaining to the landlord about their complaining, though.

My crazy cousins have determined that Thanksgiving feastivities will be enduring through Saturday.

At some point on Saturday, this is going to happen.

We are mostly old farts and none of us are getting any younger, but you can be damned sure I'm charging the phone up for that shit (for insurance purposes when someone inevitably ends up sent to the hospital if nothing else).

Thanksgiving Thunderdome: TWO COUSINS ENTER, ONE COUSIN LEAVES.

...did I mention my relatives are insane? I have neon green and teal and orange hair at the moment and I'm the sane adult in the room most of the time. (Y'all just go on and be properly horrified by that, 'cause fuck knows I am.)

@apu said in Questionably viable character types and tropes (tangent from staff ethics convo):

I think the phrase 'questionably viable' is a bit subjective. A concept that might cause one person to raise their brow at it might be perfectly fine in the opinion of another person.

It's more a factor of what some of the folks in the thread earlier were describing, re: characters that work well in fiction, but don't often make grand PCs on a MU* for a variety of reasons. (Some may make awesome plot NPCs or short-term antagonist NPCs, but they don't make for enduring PCs very well.)

There are versions of these tropes that do work -- for instance, the 'lone wolf' who is grousing all the time about all the teamwork they have to do now in <theme> when they'd rather be working on their own -- but they tend to have players aware of the limitations of the trope and compensate for it intentionally in ways that make the character not actually that trope at all in practice. Without that awareness on the player level, you have that asshole who is filing a dozen jobs a day and sucking up staff time like a shopvac on steroids because they have to do everything solo, and if they're not interacting with anybody but staff outside of OOC socializing and minimal BaRP brooding quietly in a corner and not talking to anyone, well... why be there at all?

@Bobotron @Arkandel I would love to see that if there was some self-awareness involved. As in, 'oh, gods, we've become what we despise' and so on. That dawning moment of horror is kinda amazing.

But that pretty much never, ever happens.

@arkandel Bonus points under the heading of 'all the sigh in the world': when said white hat murder party does things to the 'bad guy' that are ten times worse than anything the bad guy ever did, which is pretty common.

@aria I sometimes hate PBs for this reason.

Sometimes, someone does something so spectacularly shitty I lose favorite flicks over this weird mental glitch. My list of favorite movies I can watch a million times without getting tired of them is thus dwindling.

I might have a problem.