MU Soapbox

    • Register
    • Login
    • Search
    • Categories
    • Recent
    • Tags
    • Popular
    • Users
    • Groups
    • Muxify
    • Mustard
    1. Home
    2. surreality
    3. Posts
    • Profile
    • Following 3
    • Followers 15
    • Topics 37
    • Posts 5299
    • Best 2435
    • Controversial 6
    • Groups 4

    Posts made by surreality

    • RE: Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      Another thing that comes to mind here is this: how hands-on and accessible are staff for other things on <game>?

      It strikes me as being somewhat relevant, in that if you know you can easily approach staff with questions generally, this will be a help.

      Like, I know I was looking at a default consent-based setup for all CvC RP; there’s info there noting that players have every right to ask staff to step in and mediate if they can’t agree on something as (usually) simple as a scene outcome. First, I am optimistic that would cut down on the number of incidents of someone trying something shady (due to the presnce of a neutral observer) but also it lets people know they are indeed welcome to tap a staffer on the shoulder as a sounding board or for oversight even for ‘the little stuff’ if someone feels they need a second opinion or an assist. Ideally, that would help more players get the chance to build rapport with staff more broadly, or at least develop the basics of a working relationship, which would potentially cut down on the fear of approaching a complete stranger or unknown quantity outside of the mechanics of an app process and maybe some idle channel small talk.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      @kanye-qwest said in Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.:

      if a player is doing this stuff to one person...they are probably doing it to others, too. Like, yes you should strive for comfort and understanding but at the same time the staff's job is to do the best they can for the players. That means protecting them from known shitlord elements.

      ^ This. And sometimes it really is as simple as just paging staff, "Dude did X, it made me super uncomfortable."

      @GreenFlashlight If that's not new news to the staffer -- and it almost always isn't, even if it's the first formal report or complaint -- there's usually no need for the Spanish Inquisition, anyway.

      Saying 'don't ban Joe on my account!' is just not going to work, because if staff decides to ban Joe, it's not a matter of punishing Joe. It's a matter of not letting Joe be a shit to people on the game any longer, and that's done on the behalf of everyone, not one person making a complaint.

      If Joe did something worth getting banned for, Joe's gonna get banned. 'Don't ban him because of what he did to me' is no more practical or reasonable than a friend of Joe's insisting Joe not be banned in spite of what they did to (generic) you.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      @greenflashlight This is why I'm saying there are instances in which there's no 'investigation' or 'process' required at all to put someone through; there's enough info right there to take action. Staff should not be forcing information out of someone or demanding it, period. The target will either provide it if they are comfortable providing it, or they won't.

      The problem here is an old one: sometimes that isn't enough information to do anything with. In these instances, you will probably get asked if there's anything else in those cases, no matter where you are or who you're dealing with. You're right that how someone asks is important. Staff has to be willing to accept a 'no' here, too. "You must comply to protect the herd!" is definitely a bullshit attitude for someone to have -- but I can't actually say it's one I have ever seen. I don't doubt it exists out there, but like the 'all staff have to agree on a thing for something to happen' thing ever going well for long if ever, it would definitely be an outlier.

      The downside of this is that the person reporting does have to understand that sometimes that's going to mean not much can be done. Any staff member worth a hill of beans is going to want to do something for the person making the report, and similarly, protect everyone else on the game from similar abuses.

      I'm not a big 'benefit of the doubt to the accused' sort of gal personally, but a complaint is not a conviction and it can't ethically be treated as such. Evidence actually matters. It comes from any number of sources, including direct observation of the way the accused person conducts themselves and any previous reports or mentions of similar behavior, in addition to anything presented in the actual complaint.

      Further, I'm well aware of the emotional sensitivities during and after a traumatic experience, online and off, and don't need a primer on that front.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      @greenflashlight I'm with you completely re: ensuring the confidentiality of the person making a report.

      The one thing to keep in mind with something like this is... well, it's two-fold.

      Different games have different structures to their staff, and rarely does one person have the authority to act without consulting another member of staff. Some will only take action about something if the whole group agrees, for example, while others, if you reported the incident to a lowly admin, they are likely going to need to discuss the matter with the headwiz or someone who does have the authority to take action if something further needs to happen.

      This is a checks and balances issue; though I agree that 'the fewer involved the better' for confidentiality, some staff corps are just not designed to allow that and you run a real risk of things going much worse if only one staff member ends up handling it solo. Others may have at least one or two others who need to weigh in. That doesn't mean anyone's name goes out to the public, however. The hard part here is that the game does actually have to protect itself, too. Solo staffer action -- especially if it potentially involves removing a player from the game -- can get the rumor mill turning much faster and louder and more viciously than an actual accounting of everything that's fully public (which I agree would already be horrible), and this can end up harming everyone involved, including the person making the report (as men report, too, but as @TNP said, much more rarely -- I'm keeping my pronouns as neutral as possible for a reason), considerably more.

      You also have to figure, most complaints and reports are kept fairly confidential. People who are awful tend to accrue a fair number of them, even if it's not in the form of a formal report or complaint with or without logs, though this may not be known to the person making the report this time unless people who have reported things previously tell them so. Staff have usually observed the behavior themselves, too. These patterns are often more valuable to staff than any potentially embarrassing detail or log could ever be. Very rare is the 'huh, this is the first time I've heard anything like this!' about an abusive player, unless that player is very new to the game, staff-side, because even without formal complaints, people do mention these things when they arise, even if it is just in passing, and good staff notice them when they show up on channels, etc.

      The other thing is, staff actually is responsible for more than just that person who reports. If what they report having happened is NOT OK on that game, there's really only so much someone can ask to be done. For instance, someone reporting may not be demanding, asking, or even hoping that the offending player be removed from the game, but if the offending player broke the rules and was behaving inappropriately, they should be removed. This doesn't mean digging into anybody's business or prying around, but it does mean there are some limits on what can be asked for. For instance, 'don't ban this person even though they did this' would fall into that 'this could ultimately be unethical' category of requests if what the offender did warrants removal from the game. It would be the same if someone asked for someone to be banned who didn't deserve it, just flipped around -- it would cross an important ethical line that would make the whole game less safe, and the whole game is in the realm of the staff member's responsibility and concern.

      You can't, essentially, ask to leave the predator out in the wild to harm others if what they've done would warrant removal from the game. Staff can remove them without exposing who reported. You are very right about one thing: that part is about ensuring there will be no next target of abuse, and that no further abuse from that offender occurs to the reporting party on that game, not about punishing that person for what they did wrong already or about helping the target get back on their feet. But that's a very real and important part of staff's job and responsibility.

      Providing care and support is a separate matter entirely. There's really only so much of that staff can do, and ethically speaking, only so much they should. While a lot of us have training and/or personal experience in this area, there aren't a lot of actual therapists or counselors or victim services folk staffing -- and when staffing a game, this isn't typically on the qualifications list. People are usually there for code, for running scenes, etc. (And even the actual qualified folks who do this for a living are not likely to want to do the same, at length, for no paycheck.) The only thing worse than no support is someone who thinks they're being helpful who has no idea what in hell they're talking about, much of the time.

      This is where a good RL support network -- or network of supportive friends within the hobby -- comes in, for the most part. It isn't, and can't be, staff's job to make someone whole again after something horrible happens. Staff can be respectful of the target's privacy, and they can listen to what the target wants the resolution to be, but it is ultimately not their responsibility to provide counseling and recovery services after the fact if someone needs them.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: An Apology to BSO and BSU.

      @carnivale The thing about apologies -- this applies to even the most sincere and heartfelt ones, and I'm not saying anything about whether this is that or not -- is that you can't force someone to accept them.

      Don't get me wrong; even an insincere apology -- and I am not saying this is that, either -- that entails describing what one did wrong in such detail is difficult and awkward.

      That doesn't make any difference at all regarding the above; you can't demand someone accept it.

      All you can do, at that point, if you are sincerely remorseful, is quietly change the pattern of behavior that caused harm, and hope it makes a difference. Even difficult words are ultimately cheap. Action is less so, but dancing around and pointing to how much you've changed because you want something -- be it attention, kudos, or even forgiveness -- isn't the kind of action that is required.

      Change is expensive, but a positive change will typically pay you back in earnest. It may not be in the currency you're expecting, or from the things you want, but it will.

      As a bystander here, it looks like there's a lot that was left out of the story here that actually matters to a lot of people who were directly impacted by what was disclosed, and a lot of things that weren't. I'm not going to criticize any of the posters here for relating their experiences, no matter what other roles they may have on the board or on any given game.

      General thing: if you don't want to receive PMs from someone, if you click on their user icon and go to their user page, there is an 'ignore chats from' option on one of the dropdowns. (On the dark layout I use, it's on the blue circle with the line of three vertical dots off to the right on the user page. Ignore posts is there, too.) I stumbled across this a ways back and it's less known than the 'click on the little eye thingie on the posts' method of ignoring posts, and the ignore PMs option is I think only accessible there.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: An Apology to BSO and BSU.

      @downwithopp said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:

      Sorry if you're going to be an ass about it.

      ^ This is not how actual apologies work.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      @downwithopp Honestly? You did the hard thing. No second guessing or apologizing on posting over here required!

      I didn't think you were hijacking, I just wanted to clarify in case I was being my typical clear-as-mud self, or somebody potentially jumped your shit thinking you thought a target should be apologizing to the person targeting them (which is not how I read it, but I winced the second I realized that maybe somebody could; that'd be a deluge that would suuuuuuuuuuuuuuck in an already raw moment).

      ETA: <facepalm> Yeesh.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      @downwithopp I'm honestly not quite sure what to say here. I don't know anything about the situation you're describing and I really, really do not want to be drawn into whatever it is in any way, but it sounds like what you said was heartfelt, or at least I'd like to think so.

      It's just... er, how to put this delicately... it's not what I'm talking about here. I get that it touches on some of the same emotional resonances in a big way.

      I'm talking about situations in which someone refrains from reporting abuse (harassment, stalking, cheating on the game, abusive behavior) happening to them because they feel something they have done makes them responsible in some way, in whole or in part, for the unacceptable things that happen to them.

      I agree that in your situation it sounds like an apology was the proper answer and I commend you for making it no matter how things shake out for you going forward in that situation, but I don't believe someone who is the target of abusive behavior owes an apology to staff (save for in cases in which they engaged in genuine wrongdoing with the abusive party before the abuse was turned on them, and in that case they should be apologizing to the person(s) they wronged, definitely!) or to their abuser.

      ETA: In light of the other thread... good gods. 😕

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • Reporting Roadblocks: Denial, Fear, Shame, Guilt, Embarrassment, etc.

      Barring the rare exception of crazy staffer or badly constructed policy, most games I've seen over my twenty years in the hobby have practically posted neon signs in every corner to let players know: please tell us if you have a problem!

      But people still don't often report issues when they arise.

      In some cases, this is for external reasons: because they distrust staff -- because of something that staff did or didn't do in the past, or even because of what staff on the first game they ever played on did or didn't do. Maybe this staff is brusque and doesn't seem approachable. Maybe no staffer they ever reported to before ever did anything but make it worse, so why would they try now?

      But that's not what this thread is actually about, unless it's in a tangential fashion. This is about the internal roadblocks to getting these issues resolved, and they're rarely discussed outright. All the same, I've seen them come up every time an issue has been brought to me when I have staffed somewhere. I've seen it every time I'm just a player somewhere, and I ask someone why they haven't reported that jerk who won't leave them alone or is making them miserable. I've seen it come up in threads here, though it's often in passing.

      The 'it takes two to tango' logic -- that crappy staffers everywhere so often use as an excuse for inaction -- ends up being an excuse for inaction on the part of people who could and should be reporting a problem -- but aren't -- also. This is not because they're responsible for the other person behaving in a horrible way, but because they feel they've done something that would muddy the waters somehow and make the issue less clear, and much less likely to become anything other than 'worse'.

      A lot of times, these feelings focus on shame, embarrassment, denial, or guilt. Think of how many times you've seen or heard the following, either as a staffer, or privately as a fellow player, or even just as a reader of the forum:

      "I can't believe I fell for that craziness!" (when hindsight makes things finally clear)
      "I was OK with this, but really not OK with that. But, well, since I did the first thing... "
      "How could I be so stupid as to believe <person> again when they said they changed?"
      "It's my fault, I should have seen it much sooner."
      "I did something really shitty to <name> because of them, how can I complain about them now? I'd have to admit all the stuff about <name> for it to even make sense!"
      "I froze. I didn't know what to do."
      "I thought we were friends. They know everything about me. I know what they're doing is really fucked up, but if I say anything... "
      "I don't want to let them hurt somebody else, but the stuff we did isn't something I even want to think about, let alone talk to someone about. I don't want people knowing I did <potentially taboo or embarrassing thing>, even if I decided I really didn't like it at all once I did."

      ...yeah, probably a lot. Probably really a lot. A 'somebody get me some strong liquor to belt down, because wow, now that I think on it, that's really, really a lot'-sized a lot.

      This isn't really any game's problem to solve on its own. I think games have their part to play in it, as does the community trying to behave with some basic human decency about these sensitive issues, but I don't think it's possible for a game or the community to resolve this entirely, as the problem is an internal one to any given participant on it.

      What do you think games can do to help? (Not resolve, but help.)

      What do you think individuals people do discuss these things with should do to help? (Not resolve, but help.)

      What do you think individuals in this situation should do when confronted with these feelings?

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: RL Anger

      @ganymede Oh, believe me, I couldn't agree with you more on that front.

      I had insurance for, uhm... 5 days before I was in the ER and they were pretty sure I was gonna bite it this year? Yeah. 😐 We had set it up months earlier paperwork side, but the husband's work only kicks in policies on the 1st of the year, so we were really fucking lucky. I do not even want to think about what would have happened otherwise. (I'd be dead, we'd be completely bankrupt for the rest of our lives, or both.)

      Absolutely preaching to the choir on that one.

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: RL things I love

      @auspice Eee. Don't tempt fate! Friend of mine's father did that, and, wellllll...

      ...we just didn't talk about that closet after she showed me why we didn't talk about that closet. 😉 What closet?!

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: RL Anger

      @auspice ...well, then. I am not the kind of person who wishes the horrible experience someone is being callous about on the person being callous, but damn, that one tempts me to be.

      I pretty much lost more or less everything to a car accident I was in years ago -- there was no way I could do the job I was in college for at the time, etc. even though I fought that for years, only to end up stuck in bed and unable to walk for the better part of a month for the fighting it. I still have pretty exhausting levels of pain from the damage done on a daily basis over 20 years later.

      I don't take anything for it, because, really, I did actually 'get used to it'. Getting used to it meant giving up the career I was training for, most of the things I wanted to actually do with my life, and most of the things I wanted to have in my life. At the time, it was because of the dreaded 'no insurance'; now, it's too late for anything to be done about it, pretty much.

      So, really, fuck those doctors. Perhaps they should imagine what would have happened to them if someone slammed their surgery hand in a car door in the middle of their residency, and how they'd feel about that. Somehow, I doubt they'd be so bold as to talk like that.

      And, damn. I say this as someone who had to take opioids earlier in the year and hated every second of it, because they have nasty side effects for me that are less pleasant than the pain itself most of the time. 😕

      'Live with it' isn't the answer. Better, less dangerous medication should be on the agenda, though, for real. ('cause y'know I would kinda like there to be something out there I can take some day without becoming an insomniac hybrid of a hormonal honeybadger and a rabid wolverine, yeesh.)

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: RL Anger

      @auspice said in RL Anger:

      The office thermostat was set to 78' today. I promptly turned it down to 72'. 😐

      Jam something in there to make it stick. Crazy glue is cheap, too. ❤

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: RL things I love

      @pandora This is all supremely awesome news.

      Double bonus kudos on wrestling through all of the immigration stuff. A work partner/friend of mine went through the same thing with the UK and she said it's always a ridiculously slothful slog of hellish bureaucrazy -- she was wrestling with them for years. (From how she described it, it's pretty much this all the way down, so this is extra good to hear.)

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: RL Anger

      @auspice I would wear a bikini into that office on principle.

      I will unabashedly note that I am not a person who should ever be seen by other living beings in a bikini, not even my cats, or the bacteria that live on eyelashes.

      For purposes of the above statement, anyone setting an office thermostat to 77 is a plastic potted palm tree, and absolutely deserves what they get.

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Regarding administration on MSB

      @ghost said in Regarding administration on MSB:

      @surreality said in Regarding administration on MSB:

      I'm still just not on board with this theory that incivility or poor behavior on games is the fault of the forum. I just can't get behind that one at all.

      No one's said this.

      You may not have. Others have, explicitly.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Regarding administration on MSB

      @misadventure Thank you for sparing me the dreaded double-post to add that, since my awake-too-long brain missed that bit and was about to ramble it out in likely nowhere near as concise a form.

      I see a lot of '...uh, is this a thing I should be worried about?' sometimes, so I don't rule that out.

      Some folks only feel they should bug staff once something is glaring a huge, and want that sounding board. I sorta hate this, because I'm one of those folks that, when I staff, I'd rather hear about little shit that unnerves or bugs someone, since even if that specific thing is not actionable, if it becomes a pattern, that's a lot more easy to see and more directly address. But if they're going to sounding board it first, I'm not gonna hold that against anybody. I've been there, too, not sure if something is what I think it might be and wanting some feedback before I report something.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: SunnyJ's Anti-Sexual Harassment Guide

      It's even more cringeworthy when the 'so and so' they name is a completely different person than the one that actually spoke up.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Regarding administration on MSB

      @mietze I just remember the Firan flood. So many of those players were terrified to page, and would spend like... five sentences apologizing for paging before asking a simple CG question, then were like... shocked that they got instant answers and 'that's what we're here for!' and asked if they needed help with anything else.

      It was pretty eye-opening re: how some folks in the hobby really are scared of anybody with a staff bit, period, which is really depressing. I'd never actually seen that before, since the games I'd worked on previously were much smaller and everybody more or less already knew each other, and were already chill and familiar with who they were asking (or would ask somebody they were chill and familiar with). So I kinda get it, in the sense that it may not actually be (generic) you they're scared of at all.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • RE: Regarding administration on MSB

      I have said this before and will say it again. If I'm ever running a place, and it comes up on MSB, or a problem comes up on MSB... ? First, I'm gonna be upset that they didn't come to staff about it first, but at least I will become aware of the problem and can do something to solve it.

      I had -- to the surprise of literally no one -- policy on this.

      It went like so:

      We don't care if you bitch about the game or the staff on game forums; that is not something we consider 'doing harm to the game or staff' and participants here should feel free to do so without fear of reprisal on the game itself.

      If that's what it takes for us to find out there's an issue we can try to resolve for you somehow, that's what it takes. We'd rather you come to us if you have a problem, but understand some players are extremely wary about approaching staff at all due to negative experiences reporting an issue in the hobby, and thus might prefer to post something elsewhere as a sounding board or other outlet. We'd ultimately rather have a game with fewer problems than a public reputation for having no problems that only exists because no one spoke up somewhere, even if that somewhere isn't here.

      Bear in mind, if you burn a bridge with another player by attacking them elsewhere in this way, we're not going to rebuild it for you. Similarly, if you spread nasty gossip about someone on skype or discord or a similar venue and it gets back to them -- and it always eventually does -- we're not going to demand they pretend it never happened, and we're not going to insist that they continue to interact with you if this is brought to us with a request to sever contact with you and your characters.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      surreality
      surreality
    • 1
    • 2
    • 138
    • 139
    • 140
    • 141
    • 142
    • 264
    • 265
    • 140 / 265