@WTFE Maybe we can have a few. It is definitely one of those 'we would be drunk all the time' sort of periods, though, no lie.
(Well. Not an option for me at the moment, but the painkillers are like 10x 'angry drunk', so thank gods this is the last day I have to take them. Haaaaate them.)
@Scorn I get it, hon. I know. But you actually do know me. Have I ever struck you as somebody who goes around saying 'omg how dare you guys talk about this forever when you people didn't talk this long about my poor sad feelsies!'? You're one of my best friends who does hear about that stuff privately when something goes down, and know I just kinda tend to get stupid quiet for days if there's some feelsy personal problem going on, y'know?
Really had no interest in saying anything further, but there was a light bulb moment and it may provide some clarity.
In short: There was an incident I mentioned elsewhere and said 'and people seem to think this is OK' or something similar.
From what I gather, that was interpreted to mean: 'This bad thing happened, and nobody on the forum said or did anything.'
That wasn't it. The forum was fine about that (and generally is on these things).
The 'people who think it is OK' are the people on games doing these things in the first place, not people on the forums reacting to reports of it from whoever is making them. That's the thing I felt was worth discussion, not any reaction by people on the forums months back when when it came up. (The forum was predictably cool about it. Very rarely do the troglodytes that think this is all cool beans on games show up on the forum, and when they do, they don't last long for good reason.)
Instead of slap fighting endlessly with each other about shit said on the forums, dealing with 'this is obviously a point of contention for folks, how do we ensure this and other things that people do regularly on games is actually addressed or prevented on the games themselves?' seemed more productive a use of time to me.
And woah did I put that across badly, but that was the intention there.
tl;dr: That was never a critique of people on the forums doing or not doing a thing being dubbed a problem of any kind, and hopefully that clarifies something at this point.
@Meg Hate to say it, but when I'm getting dogpiled and every mound of insults slung in my face is upvoted to the heavens, it's pretty clear that behavior is being cheered and lauded, not merely deemed acceptable. And, again, I can't even fucking apologize to someone without being a pile of shit for doing it. Doesn't exactly incline me toward being terribly apologetic or forgiving.
@shangexile ...yeah. 
Guys, uh. We are treating each other like humans and such. There is zero need to dogpile him; please don't. What he ultimately did was hard, and it was a good thing. Anybody angry with him on my account, please be aware that very awkward fence is trending toward mending, and that I would sincerely appreciate it if people didn't pour fuel on any perceived fires in that regard. He's not being a dick right now; please do not treat him like he is. Let's maybe try to let the few small decent human beings gains going on survive, at least in this case.
I would be grateful, and grateful enough I will go fuck off for a while and STFU, ok?
@Auspice Every time I've tried to walk away, I come back to screaming and accusations that I may as well be murdering somebody's grandmother.
Like I said: I am tired.
My current takeaway is that it is OK and even encouraged for people to insult me all they like, but I cannot respond in kind, cannot explain my perspective in any manner -- with or without insults -- and cannot even apologize without being made out to be a bigger monster.
I do not know anyone that would not frustrate.
@Auspice That's just it. It's after that post I was accused of being a dick to her. There's one other (including nothing mean) and that that comprised the period of time between KQ saying something, and KQ saying I was continuing to be a dick.
I haven't accused kk of anything since then, just relayed that sequence of events with the question: "How does that constitute being a dick to kk?" which I feel is a reasonable question to have.
@Auspice This is the apology I am talking about.
There's no 'but' anywhere in there. Just, 'shit, I didn't realize you thought I put words in your mouth, I never meant to do that, I hate it when people do that to me, too', and tried to make clear (to everyone) that I do not believe she did so, and that I appreciated that she had not done so.
Edit: Formula here: 'realize error' + 'express empathy' + 'apologize' + 'take action (make clear to all I do not think she did the thing + express appreciation that she had not done the thing)'
@Auspice Hate to say it, but it's pretty hard when it feels like I'm being attacked by everyone for anything and everything I say or do, up to and including apologizing to someone.
Seriously. If apologizing to someone makes me a bad person, what recourse is there?
Agree with someone who doesn't know me that I'm somebody I'm not? No.
@Sunny Thank you.
I'm not mentioning kk here in a sense of thinking she did anything wrong, either. As in, we said our peace, and so far as I knew, we were cool. If the apology didn't cover everything she felt it should, I hope she tells me what else there is. I appreciate hers, and had not realized why she was upset. It was something that would upset me, too -- so I immediately understood and apologized in return.
So far as I knew, that was a positive outcome in a tense and frustrating situation, and I would hope that if she has any other issue with me she'd mention it. I am willing to listen, anyway. She asked to not be tagged, I didn't tag her, etc. She felt I was bringing it up again to attack her repeatedly -- no, not at all, and I hope I have made that clear, also.
I am wondering why in the hell KQ calls two people apologizing to one another a case of me being a bad person, because to me, that makes no sense. That is no issue between kk and me, and she bears no responsibility or blame in it.
I'm used to tagging people when they're mentioned, and didn't know that bugged her -- so I am sorry that it was bugging her and I stopped. It is no attempt to drag her into it or drag her through the dirt, etc.
It is literally 'WTF, how is two people trying to be decent humans at each other somehow me being an asshole to them?'
@Sunny I do get where you are coming from, but there is literally nothing that will explain to me how offering a sincere apology to someone is being a dick to them, because that is completely antithetical to any rational sense.
I grok the subsequent things apparently make her think I keep suggesting she's attacking more -- which is why I made clear: nope, not saying that at all, don't think that even a little.
But, no, I am not going to 'just magically see' how apologizing sincerely to somebody makes me a bad person.
@Sunny Not even seeing an effort at that from the other direction.
Seriously. Please. Tell me how two people apologizing to each other is me being a dick to them.
That is crazypants.
The best way not garner attention for your other incidents would be to not tell us they are more important than what we're talking about.
Here's the problem: I didn't do that. I don't, as I said, have any incidents to even talk about. Seriously. I am not playing anywhere.
I get that you keep thinking that's the case, and I'm not sure how many times I can say, "I don't believe I did that, but it is absolutely not my intention to do that." When you brought it up initially, I said this. I understood where you got the impression from, and made every effort to clarify: that is not my interest or intent. I keep repeating it. It remains true.
I didn't know anything about your or your interaction with him. I only knew you from a few previously pretty sympathetic interactions.
Here's the thing, no snark intended. I don't disagree with people. I disagree with ideas or things people say or do. There are times he and I agree, and there are times we don't.
Multiple times in the previous thread, I said I felt he should just apologize. Multiple times, I asked him to please back down. He may be my friend? But that is not 'blind support of his behavior no matter what that behavior is', that's 'dude, I love you to bits, but please stop/back off/apologize/my bad'.
That is not what I'd call a defense of his actions, would you? No snark here, does that sound like I'm claiming he's in the right and everybody who took issue with it was in the wrong? Of course not. So you can probably imagine how weird it was to keep seeing talk of 'how I was backing the wrong side', I bet. Who wouldn't 'huh?' at that?
My 'side' was this: some people see this as being on par with a racial slur and are profoundly offended by it, and others are not. If you're one of the folks who is not, and you end up saying it around someone who is, you should apologize and respect that person's feelings about the word. The majority of folks in the thread who don't have a problem with the word, myself included, would gladly respect someone's preference about it when it is made known and would apologize for any unintended offense. Ghost needed a bit of a kick in the ass to get there and I had no qualms kicking him about it, even if he didn't actually get there until today. (Sorry not sorry, dude. I still 
you.)
Which is why your whole 'I am part of the enemy tribe that is showing up here to get me, just wait, more are coming totally for realz!!!!!' is bizarre.
Wait, huh? I don't get this interpretation at all and will ask that you clarify, please.
The point re: factions was, as above, there was apparently a perception that -- despite the repeated boots to ass -- I was solidly behind and supporting Ghost against everyone offended by his actions. I mean, there's a point at which somebody was going on about 'you're on the wrong side here' and whatnot, which was also pretty 'huh?' for the reasons described above.
The only thing we seemingly disagreed about on that actual issue was whether it's universally offensive or not. I don't think there's any disagreement at all re: 'if someone is offended by it, don't say it to/at them and if you find that out by saying it, apologize', obviously. (And that applies to whatever 'it' is, more or less.)
The reason I somewhat side eye your professed desire for empathy/solidarity is your habit of attacking those who offer it to you.
Problem is, I was not asking for empathy or emotional support. You did, absolutely, ask repeatedly, and that is laudable. I get that. I hope other people also see that and know you are a safe person to discuss these issues with if they have one.
I kept telling you then: I don't have a thing of my own here... 'cause I don't. Again... not playing anywhere. No stories to tell, no grand or sweeping tales of unrequited justice, nada. There were a few examples of 'if we're worried about stuff like this, shouldn't we be focusing on this arena of harassment on games more than slapfighting over a word's usage with people as stubbornly entrenched as donkeys on the edges of a cliff?' but there's nothing -- literally nothing -- I am asking for emotional support about that involves an experience on a game.•
When I have those experiences, I am way more interested in finding out if it's something that happens to others, and if it's something we can prevent from happening to anybody else. Any emotional support required -- and honestly... it's a game, I can't rank the game stuff as 'high value' anything on the personal level even if I respect that others might -- I'm going to seek in private, from people I know very well. Essentially, while that offer is appreciated, and I think it's cool you are willing to do that? That's not my interest or focus (even though I'm willing to do that for folks, too).
Calling me a harasser is extremely offensive to me.
Saying my mindset is ugly and implying that I'm supportive of harassers or at least callous toward their victims is offensive to me, and also lolzy as fuck. Shockingly, you get what you give.
'I am not interested in offering help to you and am not surprised nobody else is either' is how I interpreted the quote, and people do absolutely revoke offers of aid all the time (which is, IMO, totally OK).
While I'm not interested in seeking the kind of help you were offering (no offense intended), it looked one heck of a lot like 'you don't deserve any assistance if you need it, because you said 'Fuck you.''
That's not saying you support or encourage harassment. I don't believe you do. 'I'm not surprised nobody gives a shit if it happens to you' ain't a big stretch, though.
And then, you know, you decided to ping me to call my mentality ugly.
Yeah, I find the comment I quoted indicative of some pretty ugly thinking, even with the most generous possible read that's just 'you're so awful it's no surprise nobody cares about your probably overwrought online dramas'.
Bluntly: my 'high value victimization' is nothing that has happened online, and nothing I would be seeking any kind of support for here. It does include multiple rapes, attempted murder, and over a decade of threatening RL local stalking, property damage (not Spider), and physical violence. None of that is mountains being made of molehills, nor is it online drama of any kind.
Some of these things have come up in the past. For instance, in discussions regarding being respectful of subjects that are uncomfortable for fellow players, I've mentioned, "I've had to tell folks to avoid subjects involving choking and strangling, as I would really prefer not to deal with a flashback to someone trying to kill me when I was younger. That would kinda fuck up a scene for everybody." <-- not an ask for 'omg you poor soul!' or some sort of 'my life sucks worse than yours' martyr cred (because who would even want that, right? omg), but as an example of 'people have RL shit sometimes, how do you handle if it it comes up online in RP?' if the discussion is, y'know, 'people have RL shit sometimes, how do you handle it if it comes up in online RP?'
• I don't mind if other people do, but I'm cagey about weird shit, myself. While I am open about some experiences? I'm not super keen on opening up emotionally to folks I do not know extremely well about any current angsts that are going down in the support department. 90% of that is not wanting to burden people here with that kind of thing, and 10% is knowing the rumor mill works overtime in this hobby. That's not an accusation that you're a gossip or untrustworthy, it's 'I don't know this person to know if they would be safe to discuss anything with that I would expect to remain in confidence'. I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me anything like that, either, despite the whole 'private's private' attitude I have about things. (For all anybody knows, I say that and just spout off anyway, after all. They only have my word that I wouldn't.)
kk I am not, in any way, saying you are continuing to do so.
I am relating a sequence of past events. 'A happened, B happened, C happened.'
That is all.
I am in no way trying to insult, malign, or attack you by mentioning that sequence of past events.
I do not think it unreasonable to be several shades of 'huh?' for being told I was being a dick to you for us apologizing to each other, and each of us assuring the other person we were not trying to offend the other. We were trying to stop being dicks to each other, ffs.
But now I'm hearing that I am somehow still attacking you for wondering why us apologizing to each other is me being a dick to KQ, who commented after said apologies were made, and had presumably seen them (since they were the only comments we even made to/about each other in the interim at all).
I don't think this is a terribly weird thing to wonder, y'know? I mean, come on.
kk I meant my apology to you, too. (And not tagged, as requested.)
When I say 'come in swinging', I mean 'the accusation was in the initial post here', and we've settled that just fine, I hope. That's all. It's also not intended to be anything other than that. I don't intend for it to be taken as anything else, or some additional accusation of any kind.
@kitteh Here's the problem: I wasn't complaining that I am not getting attention at all times. I don't want attention at all, most of the time, let alone for the shit I consider 'high value victimization'. As stated elsewhere: this is not the place for that, full stop.
The only 'high value victimization' I have discussed on the forum here was in a fight with @Ghost a few months back, and, ironically enough, in discussion with @shangexile here a page or so back. You will, ideally, notice I'm not asking people to feel sad or offer me headpats or sympathy or support for any of it, and that it's relevant only in context of: "Dude, you knew about this stuff... " which is relevant to that interaction -- which, itself, resolved with mutual empathy, compassion, and lots of uncomfortable honesty all around. I am not going to dig around for the exchange with @Ghost to find the reference, but I'm not asking anybody for cuddles or sad-eyed kittens there, either.
Saying, 'hey, isn't belaboring this endlessly a bit much, when there's shit actively going down on games that is problematic?' is not whining for personal attention, no matter how many times it was characterized as such. Is that easily taken as offensive or insulting? Sure, but I figured it was worth clarifying and/or correcting rather than trying to land a punch over it. (We can see how far that approach got, I guess.)
I will repeat: I have not been RPing anywhere to be generating any accounts of any sort of problem (to or from me) since January; I have no personal stories to be sharing here in the first place that I could even feel somehow slighted about. I am, actually, aware that I'm not exactly OK right now, and I'm not going to let that interfere with someone's experience on a game.
I don't especially feel super awesome being mocked for that, because I do feel I'm being mocked for something I admit openly and accept in a particularly ugly way, and feel I have tried to take reasonable steps to prevent from interfering with somebody else's fun hobby time.
@kk admitted she was calling me a hypocrite, and apologized for doing so. She then pointed out she felt I had accused her of saying shit she did not say -- which would offend me, too! -- and I apologized to her for that, because that was absolutely not my intention at all. (Then KQ calls this 'continuing to be a dick to her'. Starting to see the problem here? Yes, the dust had started to settle, and then... )
You will continue to see this how you like. So will I.
Calling me a harasser is extremely offensive to me.
I am asking you to leave me the fuck alone at this point. You will notice there are no insults to you in this post, despite plenty in yours to me, and it's that way for a reason.
Leave. Me. Alone.
@Ganymede I do, believe it or not as you will, appreciate that clarification. It does help. Thank you.
At this point, I am frankly just tired.
Some of the shit being flung around is deserved, and some really fucking isn't. It's been going on for a while now, and I am honestly just tired of it.
@Thenomain Fair enough. Opting out of there for the time being sounds like a good call, then. Apologies (for real) if this has been stressing you out, as you're a good dude IMO.
@Thenomain Leave me out of it, please. I have tried to make repairs at various points and that is proving entirely futile and irrelevant. There's really nothing worth remarking on from here.
@Meg It is the rarest rare. I hear it's made from actual gold leaf and magic holofoil.
Seriously.
People come to a general agreement and understanding... and kk comes in swinging.
That quiets down with mutual apologies, Kanye Quest characterizes it as me continuing to be a dick to kk.
Now we have the kitteh round as shit starts to settle again.
Really, people? I kinda don't give a fuck what Ganymede suggests in this regard; I'm not going to serve as a punching bag for people to come swinging at the moment the last round dies the fuck down toward peaceability and generalized chill and be 'the one keeping things going'.
