Posts made by Thenomain

@The-Tree-of-Woe said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@Thenomain I will apologize for making you feel Othered, that was not my intent. I come here to let my hair down a bit and stop being nice, it gets away from me sometimes.

In the end I can concede that there are benefits to stuff being accessible off the game itself without having to head to another window, and some people do just function better that way.

No probob. I probably did my Thenoisms a bit too Thenoishly myself. I think the best solution to any accessibility consideration is to make redundancy easy. c.f., @Chime is a goddess for making hooks between Wiki and Mu*. We absolutely should be going in this direction.

edit: And yeah, I do take this topic a bit personally. I consider myself a thoughtful coder, and being told I'm not thoughtful enough is a challenge. I want every single person who interacts with my code to be able to learn it stress-free. That people still have issues with my chargen saddens me. The whole point is that you can set things in whatever order you want, and the system knows if you're right or wrong without you or staff or anyone having to remember how differing aspects interact. I feel like a shitty coder because I can't just pick up, say, Evennia and solve further usability issues. Evennia baffles the hell out of me, but I haven't seen an Evennia-based game get the game/website interaction in a way that's any better than Wikidot and a staffer paying a minimum amount of attention. So. Frustrating.

@faraday said in How to Change MUing:

@Rook For me, any new game has to answer the simple question: What do the PCs do.

This was asked by Indie RPG designers in 2005. Originally posited by Jered Sorenson (an Indie RPG darling), these are:

1. What is your game about?
2. How does your game do this?
3. How does your game encourage / reward this?

This doesn't help us very much, and The Forge(†) expanded on this to "The Power 19". Well, 19 questions are a lot, so I'm going to only link to them here, but the first three are important to this thread:

1. What is your game about?
2. What do the characters do?
3. What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?

As a forum, we've touched on these before. Hell, if WORA was still searchable you'll find people like me and @Misadventure posting this list. We've been championing these questions for a very, very long time. 2005, people. Two. Thousand. Five.

(I'm sure you have too, @faraday, but you are a quiet mouse next to Mis and I.)

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(†) "The Forge" was a forum kind of like Soapbox, but for indie RPG development and discussion, and to be honest kind of more snobby than we've ever been. The Post-Forge era of indie RPG design is what we're living in now, where we escape from Ron Edwards' rules-heavy ideologies, but we have learned a lot from it.

@Tempest said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

I think, in my 5~ years of WoDing, I've seen a whopping two instances of genuine Player Killing.

I hope it was Character Killing instead, or at least you called the cops.

Also, I was talking about PvP, not PK. I hope to champion allowing people to be more comfortable that the former doesn't have to lead to the latter.

@kitteh said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

once you're moving beyond something as obviously delineated as 'PvP is about to happen' as your use case, I'm not sure what gains it has over page.

Then it's not for you, and so don't use it. If you're asking me to explain the thinking of its creation and the people who used it, I did try to; I'm not sure what else I can say other than if it makes people more comfortable to have an impartial and impersonal notification as an invitation to discussion, then there is value in it.

When you're already uncomfortable and more than likely a bit introverted, knowing that there is even the option, that someone is on your side, can do wonders.

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As an aside, @faraday and @surreality are talking about different levels of responsibility. I do think that saying "this is a game and you're here voluntarily, so be aware of what's going on here" is a kind of responsibility.

Those of us from WoD games are used to AUPs and Ethics News Files that are pages and pages long. I find any straightforward explanation refreshing.

Who remembers +warn?

Who remembers what it does?

For the rest: '+warn <character>' was a command that sent a simple personal message to someone else: My character is on the edge of violence due to actions your character is following.

This was a PvP indicator, and it was moderately successful. The goal of it was to indicate that the user is going to go along with this, and asks if the the recipient agrees. It gives the recipient a chance to stop and negotiate without breaking the flow of the scene for everyone every ten minutes to check if everyone's fine with how things are going.

I think PvP became more of a social stigma in the WoD circles so its use diminished, but it still exists here and there. It takes the burden of trying to figure out just how to say something in a way that won't cause more problems off your shoulders. Just 'warn bob': Okay, Bob has been warned that your character's on the edge of nastiness. Boom, done.

You can always not use it. There are very few Mu* commands that are not optional. But people seemed to like having the option of starting a conversation without having to figure out how to start it.

This is how I imagine the Stoplight system.

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Incidentally: The first option, Lines and Veils, is a different take on the RP Prefs setup, where things are defined ahead of time. Someone mentioned there not being a "beforehand" option, and like 'warn' and not having to make a big deal of things, pre-defining your wants and bugbears is every bit a part of communication as waiting until you're feeling uncomfortable.

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I actually don't mind the information being in game. I would just like for it to also be available off-site. That way we both win.

And this is why @Chime's wiki-to-mux help and news reader makes her a goddess. She has berated me before for thinking inside the Softcode Box before, and she's absolutely right.

My mom is a fucking hassle. She can't open a fucking Chrome window without downloading three viruses and fifty seven malware bugs.

Fuck. I have to pay a visit today again.

God dammit.

Have you considered AdBlock Plus and a machine to smack her knuckles every time she clicks a link? Maybe a firewall rule against any "driver update" website would help, too.

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I think you're taking it too personally.

Only a little. I think it was something that needed to be said. Really, let me summarize what I saw Tree saying. (This is not an actual quote)

I don't like doing things this way therefore you can't do it the way you like to do it

Fine, whatever, ignorance, but when someone I respect for thinking things through agrees with that then it's time to clear the air. As I'm not a writer, it all comes out in thought-ramblings that may look more personal than they are. Except for the "The Other" comment; seriously, peeps, this is a hobby to us as well.

Back to a real quote:

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

My point is more that I think at least some of the time you put emphasis on things that other people consider irrelevant, and vice versa.

And my point is that they may seem irrelevant to you, but you're not the person on the spot who has to decide, with all they know, what "relevant" means.

(edit as a note to would-be coders: If you make this decision without asking around, you are a shitty coder; our job is to facilitate the game, as is every staffer's job--this forum was originally based on outing staffers who put themselves and their friends before the game so don't be that person. What is "relevant" is based on the game, not you.)

For fuck's sake, dude, this tangent started because I said that it's a pain in my ass to hit up a wiki for one line's worth of information. This was even explained using words and examples! It would be super-duper cool if someone made a GUI for Mu*, that allowed a web site to be pulled up concurrent with the text input/output window, but here we are for now.

By "here" I mean "as long as I'm the coder, information will be available in-game, even if it's also available out-of-game."

We're both people with social issues that make communication a fucking hassle, so instead of being put-out by the above, just remember you're my codey-bear.

...

...

Your mom was a fucking hassle.

@Coin

And as a coder, I have to shoulder the responsibility of those decisions that I have to make. Let's be fair; you also hate it when I take extra time to make something as easy as possible on the user because it takes more time and that's time I can't use to do something else. What is being asked takes a metric fuck-tonne of time with the tools I'm using.

What you don't see is my process of exploration, the sometimes hours I take for information-gathering. I am, to be frank, a little put out that you don't consider this discussion here to be me focusing on problems that you--you personally, as well as you the reader in general--have not yet asked me to do.

What I mean to say to you and @The-Tree-of-Woe is that if you don't think I'm thinking of the end-user experience, then you are absolutely insane. I do things that make no sense to me all the time.

I ask of people like you (hating that I'm being put in the position of The Other by you two, by the way) is that you explain to me what your position is. And if I can do things I think is the wrong way to do things, if I can suck it up, then give me and other coders the respect that we are trying and that we are shouldering the things that you find are "the wrong way" for no other reason than because you think what we do is magic.

ProTip: It's a lot of fucking work. You're good at working with coders on a compromise and explaining yourself, @Coin, but in your agreeing with Tree I'm going to use that as a platform to swan dive into this. I did ask Tree that if he wanted to go down this path to make this a different thread, but nnnooOOOooo, and so you get this rant here, this rant that I hold in every time this comes up. I hold it in because as a coder I have to shoulder the responsibility of those decisions that I have to make.

I hear this quietly from other coders, too. I know @Chime left Mu* coding because she got tired of people not respecting even the most basic of miracles. I know @faraday has openly said this is why she keeps partially quitting Soapbox. Hell, even @Cobaltasaurus left here because people would rather tell you what you're doing wrong than trying to make it right.

So no, @Coin, I don't code on my own whim. I code on a lot of information and I try to do things right by as many people as possible. I'm sorry that you absolutely can't stand some aspects of the Tiny platform. I'm sorry that there aren't enough hours (or ponies) in the day. I'm sorry that I don't make a big deal out of how hard this shit is so that you and The Others get complacent that when I say something like "this is the wrong way to approach the problem" you think I'm saying that because I'm lazy or ignorant or ignoring the end-user.

Hopefully this will fix some of that. If not, then whatever. This took a half hour of my day, but I thought it was important not for me, but for your edification. I might be wrong, but at least I tried. And maybe @The-Tree-of-Woe can't understand that this is to help bridge understanding, but I know sure as hell that you aren't this dense.

Being dense is my job.

@surreality

In our violently agreeing, you have missed the part where I very openly said that calling it 'kinks' was making me uncomfortable and would prefer to call it RP Prefs. It's also more technically accurate and removes a lot of baggage and connotation from the phrase.

@surreality

So, RP Prefs.

@surreality

I'm going to stick with the definition of 'kink'. If you two want to open minds or re-define it, please find another thread to do so as I'm not buying it. I'm trying to find social and codewise solutions to people's discomforts in scenes, without singling out the people who like to push their own boundaries. It's a shared space, and should have tools to make that comfortable.

Right now, I'm not comfortable, and will continue to call it RP Prefs.

@Misadventure said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

RP Prefs are kinks.

Maybe in your world, but in my world they're not something that I use to get myself off.

Just sayin'.

@Misadventure said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

Is there a coded way to have something like the stoplights always displayed?

Of course. We take the MUD/Nuku style of updating the information onto your screen after every time you type something. Or you take the web-page style. Or you update everyone who is either new to the scene, when the scene changes, or when someone changes their position.

I could see the veils and lines thing being a list set up by staff

I could see this something called "RP Prefs", as you mention via invoking 'kinks'.

So, the latest development blog for the new version of Changeling, and it's about Storytelling, and it's here: http://theonyxpath.com/storytelling-changeling-the-lost/

In this, she reveals some ideas from other RP groups and icons on how to indicate intensity and discomfort in a scene. My purpose of this post is to see how this might be applied to a Mu*, or other text-based online persistent platforms.

First, the text:

LINES AND VEILS
A classic safety technique originally described by Ron Edwards, Lines and Veils allows players to pick and choose what they want to address in the chronicle. Before game, the Storyteller should prepare two sheets of paper. Label one “Lines” and the other “Veils.” Lines are things that will absolutely not be touched on in the chronicle, not even mentioned in passing. Veils are things that can happen, but will not be played out, and instead addressed with a “fade to black.” The Storyteller asks players what they’d like added to the lists, and notes that the lists can be edited at any time. Veils can be moved to Lines, Lines can be moved to Veils, new Veils or Lines can be added, or Veils or Lines can be taken away (with the consensus of the other players). Veils and Lines cannot be used to cut out antagonists (i.e. “I don’t want the True Fae to be a part of this chronicle at all, not even mentioned in passing”) but can be used to restrict antagonists’ actions that might be uncomfortable for some players (i.e. “I do not want the True Fae in this chronicle to use sexual violence”).

Common Lines: Sexual violence, explicit depiction of torture, force feeding, starvation, mutilation, racial slurs, gender-specific slurs, spiders, trypophobia-inducing imagery, needles, bestiality, explicit depiction of bodily functions

Common Veils: Explicit depiction of consensual sexual activity, torture, emotional abuse, physical abuse, body horror, human experimentation, dream or nightmare sequences, childhood memories, prophetic visions

FADE TO BLACK
In a movie, when the hero is just about to get into bed with her love interest or be “forcibly interrogated,” sometimes the camera cuts away right before the action — occasionally with a moan or a scream included as appropriate. This technique is called “fade to black,” and can be used in your chronicle as appropriate. If you don’t want to narrate every caress of a love scene or the weirdness of a changeling’s personal nightmare or the agony of Faerie torments, simply fade to black and focus on another scene. A player can also request a fade to black if they are uncomfortable with what is happening at the table.

THE STOPLIGHT SYSTEM
This is a relatively recent technique and was pioneered by the group Games to Gather. The Storyteller lays out three different colored circles on the table: red, yellow, and green. Each color indicates a response to different levels of intensity. Green means “yes, I am okay with and encourage the scene getting more intense.” Yellow means “the scene is fine at the intensity level it is now, and I would like it to stay here if possible.” Red means “the scene is too intense for me in a bad way and I need it to decrease or I need to tap out.” Players can tap the colored circles as appropriate to indicate to the Storyteller what they want or need at that moment.

The Storyteller can also use the stoplight system to ask the players if they’d like intensity increased or decreased as necessary without breaking the narrative flow. To do so, the Storyteller can repeatedly tap a color — green for “more intense,” yellow for “keep it here,” and red for “do you need me to stop?” The players can then touch a color in response. Players can also respond by saying the color in question out loud.

THE X CARD
An up-and-coming technique, especially in storytelling-game circles, the X card was designed by John Stavropolous. The X card is fairly self-explanatory. A card or sheet of paper with an “X” drawn on it is placed in the middle of the table. At any point, a player or the Storyteller may touch the X card to call a halt to any action currently making them uncomfortable in a bad way. If they would like to explain themselves, they may, but it is absolutely not necessary and the Storyteller should continue play once everyone is settled back in.

THE DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN
This is another technique that needs very little explanation. If a player needs to stop play for any reason, they are free to do so after giving the Storyteller a heads up. The chapter (game session) is then on pause until that player either returns or leaves the premises. Storytellers should use this technique either in conjunction with other techniques, or during sessions where players may have to leave abruptly for personal reasons.

Now, the question: Besides Fade to Black (which should always be available to everyone, always) and The Door Is Always Open (which I think is common sense), which method do you think would be best for our hobby?

I am leaning toward Stoplight. It's more nuanced than a straight-up yes/no, and doesn't push players to wait until they need to stop. It does, however, mean more fiddling with commands and keeping track of things.

Thoughts?

@The-Tree-of-Woe

Yeah, but I'm often the person who has to make this level of decision, when I'm the coder. I try to impress on people that how information is available is dependent on what the information is. I am always concerned at making sure that the information makes as much sense and is as easy to find as possible. (I've always learned information defined as: Data that is Accessible & Timely.)

I am more than willing to change my own methods of garnering information, but unless staff assures the data is accessible to the average dunce, then who cares where it's kept?

I'm always looking for input, so in that sense there is no finality and therefore no "agreement". Only "improvement". This has never been an either/or debate.

@The-Tree-of-Woe said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I find remembering fiddly little MUX commands to find something buried in the help absolutely befuddling

Then someone didn't do their job well. Just because something is on a wiki doesn't mean it will be done right. I've hit the same issue of "where the hell is this?" on wiki after wiki. And the number of people who, on a channel designed to help, will answer "it's on the wiki" and get visibly snippy if you ask where on the wiki is another downside. I'm not going to blame wiki for this; I'm going to blame implementation.

Again, wiki is not a cure-all.

I was half-kidding, Tree. I will say that I love (adore, really) Movie Bob's "Comics Are Weird" videos that I haven't looked for in some time, but you did touch on two things that I wanted to reply to.

1. Having to leave the game to pull some simple information is stupid. Sorry, but if I'm looking up information on the, say, 'Better Stay Quiet' power modifier, I don't want to have to stop what I'm doing, cmd-tab over to the browser, cmd-t for a new tab, open the wiki, type in 'Better Stay Quiet' into the wiki's search area and hope beyond hope that some staffer put it in a sensible manner, when I could type stat better stay quiet and get the basics right then and there. (Hoping that someone put them in is the worst of it.)

I know there's been a recent push on these boards that Mu* help is teh ebil, but put information where the information is the most useful. Wiki is wonderful, but it's not a cure-all.

2. Who's Psylocke? Who's Fantomex? Why should I even care who Fantomex is? Am I in this example playing Psylocke? Then of course I'm looking at Psylocke wiki. (Man, I mis-spelled that name three times while typing this paragraph.) I know that there are people who don't, but that depends, as Social said, on how much the game runners care.

I care that people aren't going to berate me for not knowing who Psylocke (almost four typos) or Fantomex are.

The point being, Wikis are as easy to manipulate and access as MU*s are slow and kludgy and clumsy. Moving as much read-only info onto a wiki as you can seems like a net positive.

That's a broken point, but it's not my main concern. We can talk about what information should be information where, in general terms, in a less tangental thread if you'd like.

@Tyche said in RL things I love:

@Thenomain said in RL things I love:

@Tyche said in RL things I love:

I'm a swiftie.

I heard that about you.

You know, from your wife-slash-girlfriend or husband-slash-boyfriend.

It's a bad joke.

On purpose.

... I think.

Your mother should be more discreet.

That was too easy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_man_(stock_character)

You're welcome.

@SG said in Space Games and Travel Time? Why? Why Not?:

Anyways, design a setting with this in mind, I guess.

Not a crazy idea. Probably should be one of the first concerns when deciding on a game to throw onto a 24/7 persistent environment.

I think, tho, that anyone should be able to say, "No, you can't be in this PvP scene because were you were not that close by." If it's PvE (plot, scene, whatever) then there'd have to be a more compelling reason.

This isn't a Space Game issue, but I can see how that kind of setting exacerbates the perception.

@Arkandel said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@fatefan I don't know if any three of us who've posted here agreed on what 'this game' should be.

As long as I don't have to know thirty freaking years of comic book lore. I don't care if it's based on thirty freaking years of comic book lore, but I want to reserve the right to punch in the mouth the first person who calls me out on not knowing either Jack nor Shit, whom I'm sure are some comic book duo somewhere in the vestiges of this soap opera world.

Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?

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