@Kanye-Qwest said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
Or maybe you're just getting emotional
wow
WOW
@Kanye-Qwest said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
Or maybe you're just getting emotional
wow
WOW
@surreality said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
That's not a character interaction any more, y'all.
A "relationship" can mean anything from us talking to (or at) each other on a forum, to an emotional connection. If I have a one-night stand, that's still a sexual relationship. If I have the same one-night stand via fiction?
I think you're taking it waaaaaayyy too nitpicky, @Sunny. Or perhaps you're projecting? Or maybe you're just getting emotional and are not able to say:
"What squicks me is that people are projecting through their character." (This is my interpretation of your meaning only.)
Instead all you're saying is:
"No, you're wrong."
I like reading you as to saying the former because that's something we can sink our teeth into, something to discuss. The latter is just...what do you want from people out of that? Handjobs and puppies?
@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.
How long have you been on the internet?
I'm not saying I'm one (anymore), but your surprise confuses me with its naivety.
Skeeve =/= surprise.
Okay, so you're skeeved? So what? This is an honest question because I don't know how your discomfort changes what other people do or believe.
Not that you're wrong. Nor do I think you're right. I just don't know what this has to do with anything.
@Sunny said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
I am actually really skeeved that TSing someone is being equated out to having an actual sexual relationship with them.
How long have you been on the internet?
I'm not saying I'm one (anymore), but your surprise confuses me with its naivety.
@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Sunny So you don't think that having a sexual relationship with a person in power over the community that you are invested in is a detriment to the rest of the community? That it doesn't undermine trust as an impartial staffer?
Is the interaction being taken IC or OOC?
How many people would any of us trust to take "RPing out sex" to be wholly IC?
Which I think was the point you were getting at.
@saosmash said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
who cares where the ftb point is?
I don't think good staff is the exception anymore. I certainly don't think using commentary here is a good indication of how many good staffers we have. And if you're reading the Hog Pit...well, stop reading the Hog Pit.
Assuming staff is shady is a defensive mechanism. Everyone takes emotional abuse differently, starting with the idea that we let ourselves be emotionally abused by Pretendy Funtime Games but seeing how angry people get over something as nonthreatening as sports I don't think that's us. I think that's humanity.
We have an ingrained fear of The Other, and staff is often to players behind a velvet curtain. Staff historically ("in my experience", and I may get back to that phrase in a bit) has closed themselves off from the player base at large. Trusting an unknown with power over your ability to interact can be a daunting thing. Treating unknowns with skepticism is not something we should be surprised about. Another survival mechanism.
I'm not arguing against your point. Eventually the behavior becomes toxic, but that can be said of any behavior. But of the games I've poked at lately, people have been fairly welcoming and willing to help, and that's exactly what is needed to overcome the caution. Some people are more cautious than others, some people are more like abuse survivors than others. Sometimes that means smiling sadly and saying that you can't do more than you have.
Everyone has different experiences, and the best any of us can do is be patient and understanding and fair and kind, even when you're showing them the door.
@mietze said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain we were talking about the differences between NPCs and pcs. All people on a game, whether staffer or player, have the ability to create rich RP and immersion and story. NPCs, in my opinion, are more targeted tools. Stating what an npc does does not preclude a PC from doing so also. Not sure what your point is in trying to make it seem like I said pcs cannot contribute to theme, plot, or immersion. I didn't. Not particularly interested in arguing that.
I'm saying that watching an NPC chase down his hat on a windy day contributes to my enjoyment of the game.
Plot? Probably not.
Game? Absolutely.
@Arkandel said in Game of Thrones:
Which Game of Thrones alumni do you think will have the better career going forward?
Peter Dinklage.
@Auspice said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@krmbm said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
There is so much packed in that statement that I'm just going to leave it there and walk slowly away, around the corner, and break into a flat-out run.
Well, now you have to fail weyrlinghood and do the entire 12 weeks over again.
Poor weyrlinghood experiences are, I swear, why a great many people idle out before they graduate.
I was one of those assholes who got picked out of the crowd. By a bronze. I'm more embarrassed about that fact than the firelizard bit.
Double post for reasons of actual content.
@mietze said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain No, I don't consider someone throwing a bottle and another person getting hit by it in game purposeful in-game direction of the game, sorry.
Actually I wanted to harp on respond to this a bit, too.
Someone poses that it's a windy day and someone else poses an NPC losing their hat.
It's certainly not a purposeful in-game direction of the game, but it's flavor that goes toward making the game alive for me. The more that I feel my character is part of a world and not just a scene, the more I enjoy a game. I like immersion, and I like a story that is not just plot.
@Auspice said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
(actually I've never multi-scened when we RP)
I once (mistakenly, honest) let a TS pose slip through a firelizard puppet.
There is so much packed in that statement that I'm just going to leave it there and walk slowly away, around the corner, and break into a flat-out run.
@Sparks said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:
@Thenomain said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:
And you have an organized support network, which is far more than non-staff players can say.
I took that to mean that players could not say they had the that benefit, whereas staff are guaranteed it. So apparently I misunderstood what you were saying, but I feel like saying that my interpretation is "putting words in your mouth" is maybe a bit much.
That's fair.
Regardless, even with your clarification—that what you mean by 'organized support network' is access to all chats, the jobs board, all bboards, etc. is a huge perk—I honestly still kind of disagree with this premise.
Sure. If being robbed of the third-act twist is a problem, then I suppose it could be, but on most games I've been on I've never seen anyone forced to learn things they didn't want to know.
As a player? It actually kind of sucks sometimes.
And here I'll go further into my personal staff theory: You're not a player. You're a staffer. You might have a PC, you might want to enjoy the game as a player, but you're not. Why? You might buy products from the company you work for, but even off the clock you're an employee of that company and that responsibility grows the higher you up in the chain.
I think you're already saying this, though. And I empathize; I, too, have had games less interesting for me because I participate in the behind-the-scenes, but that's a part of staffing. It's a trade-off. That doesn't make the access less of a perk, it just means you now have to live with knowing how the sausage is made.
But that also means you cannot have that moment the audience can, where the mechanical dragon descends to hang above the actors, its mane blowing dramatically in the 'wind' made by the fans offstage as the gears in the neck tick and it tilts its head to regard the characters below gravely.
I wanted to address this line particularly.
This is why I code. Because I want to watch the reaction of the audience, how fresh and new and exciting it is every time. As a player you can get that by meeting new people, throwing twists in their character discovery, enticing people into plots.
If every staffer doesn't want this a little bit then I don't know what to say. Maybe they're doing it to better their own personal interests. Maybe they're just going through the motions. And maybe those people should consider leaving staff.
It's the difference between saying running a book signing event and saying "I think the fact that the volunteers will—by nature of their job—be spending time with the author as stock is signed is perk enough." (which is fine, it's your event) versus being an attendee at someone else's event and appending "And therefore this person who brought cookies as thanks for their volunteers is doing it wrong; they either should have brought enough cookies for all the attendees, or they shouldn't have brought any at all!"
Good fucking god, if I ever say anything equivalent to this, shoot me.
(I know people are thinking about responding "but you did!", there's implied and there's inferred.)
Anyway, I suppose that was a heck of a lot of words to say basically "I don't agree that 'the job should be reward enough for the job' is a philosophy you can universally apply to staffing, much less one you should. Especially when the perceived 'advantages' inherent to doing the job can also be disadvantages."
And this brings us to the crux: If you're not enjoying your volunteer job, why are you doing it?
--
"Yeah, if you can convince your players that's kosher, fine, but I will still expect games I play on do otherwise."
If I implied this, I apologize. There is passion and there is reason and sometimes—often—they don't line up.
The first part of my post was, "This is what I believe to the core about what's good for this hobby." The second was, "But we're not going to enjoy this if we don't try what we believe in." They are different, discrete statements, both equal in importance.
And as long as there are people willing to discuss the pros and cons of each other's points, then I think we're doing alright.
I'm angry every time I misplace my "don't beat myself up" medication. Mostly at myself.
... Wait.
@Kanye-Qwest said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
ALL npc rp time should be in the interest/service of the plot/characters of the game.
:nodding, chinstroke: Interesting.
So, and I'm going to make a conclusion that might make some people angry but...we...aagrrreeeeeeeeee...?????
@faraday said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
I think the main concern isn't really the nomenclature, but the troubling behaviors that result. Like when a staffer is clearly playing a character like a PC, but is doing so in some shady manner under the guise of "but it's just a staff NPC". Whatever you call it, shady is shady.
I completely agree with you and @mietze and @Wretched and everyone else that using an NPC like a PC is a problem.
But what does that mean, "like a PC"?
I kind of like what @bear_necessities did there, but as they and you and other say, the nomenclature is all fubar.
I like the idea that if someone is doing something with a non-PC, it should—must?—serve the game in some way, either to build atmosphere, be a living part of the setting, engage in plot, or whatever.
That is, staff should probably always be thinking: If it doesn't serve the game, it shouldn't be done.
And yes, hanging out on the river and encountering a Hedge Shark that suddenly bursts out of the water sending everyone screaming like excited school girls counts as "for the game". Well it was for ours. It was awesome.
I know this sounds like what other people have already said (tl;dr: I agree), but I think what is stated about NPCs should be considered a truism of everything on the game, not just NPCs and not just staff. Players, too, when engaging with the environment should take into consideration that the more people it affects the more they're taking staff-like actions.
That's one of the muddy things about Mu*s; players get a small token of staffliness too.
@mietze said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
@Thenomain npc implies some purpose of plot or in game IC direction/supervision/touchstone utilized by staff.
Does it?
If you throw a bottle in a bar and someone—staff or not—poses someone getting hit, does that serve IC direction? Is, then, any aspect of the game setting "serving IC direction"?
To me, in Mush context, an NPC is part of the environment. Sometimes it's a tree, standing there looking pretty. Sometimes it's a bolt of lighting, and my character is holding a golf club to the heavens daring god to do something about it.
To me, in Mush context, anyone can work with an NPC to a limitation of reasonableness as much as a player can to any other part of the environment.
@faraday said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
I think it's an arbitrary distinction because the phrase "NPC" is kind of goofy, inconsistently used, and unclear when you're talking about MUSHes.
Tahdah!