Posts made by Tinuviel

@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

So people are choosing a whitewashed reality in this case.

I think you're attributing malice where it isn't warranted.

@Sunny said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Because I think it'd be more effective to work towards making the hobby itself more diverse

Just to pick apart your phrasing for a moment, and add some points.

I don't think anything can be done to make it more diverse. In this instance it's not a case of "build it and they will come." It takes a decent amount of up-front investment in terms of learning before one even considers making this hobby more than a passing fancy. New blood crops up, of course, but we're not going to see a flourishing of a POC community simply because we made it so. I think, seriously, that the major way we're going to see such a change is for our source material - that is to say pen-and-paper RPGs to become more palatable to a diverse audience. Which they're doing, slowly.

Of course, that isn't to say that we can't start laying the groundwork now, I just don't want anyone to have exceedingly high expectations.

@silverfox said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

By allowing people to opt-out of the discussion (said with the understanding that people can ignore, block, unwatched any thread they want) before it can even be started (such as people who ignore the whole politics thread for perfectly valid reasons) then we are complicit in allowing them to stay unchallenged in their viewpoints. I think this discussion should happen in a place where people have to actively look away to preserve their own bias.

I entirely disagree. I think there are plenty of valid reasons to ignore such a discussion on MSB without it having anything to do with biases. I sure as shit wouldn't want to have to opt out of seeing what some of you lot think about gay rights after I get home from a Pride event, for example.

If the topic is purely about Diversity in MUing, then sure public free-for-all. But if it's about race, the current racial climate, the history of racial abuses and ignorance in literature stemming therefrom... I don't agree that it should be opt out.

But this isn't a hill I'm dying on either, just explaining my point a little clearer so the Daily Mail doesn't think I'm buying a subscription.

@silverfox said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

This shouldn't be dismissed because it is "politics," it goes way beyond that.

I think that the politics section should be used for such things, still. It can be confronting, and I don't imagine everyone wants to come home from work, or protest, or whatever only to find a huge discussion on race relations and diversity popping up anywhere they want to hang out on the internet.

ETA: Not that it shouldn't be talked about, of course. It should, and it's important. It also, in my view, may require more strict supervision, and/or be put in a place where only people seeking such discussions can see it. (ETA... again: Not in life, but on MSB specifically. This is still a hangout spot, rather than an actual important place for important discussions.)

@silverfox said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

I think it is an important conversation - maybe too important to be dismissed as a peeve.

Maybe too important to be left in the Hog Pit.

@Wizz said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

It's much more common that elves and dwarves with black skin are the evil faction -- dark elves, and (specific to WoW) dark iron dwarves. That's just off-putting and weird to me.

Well, yes. But I did specifically mention that above.

And again, I said in general for fictional races. Why are dwarves and elves like that all over the place? Folkloric origins, presumably.

But if you're all going to start talking purely about race appearance outside of MUing? Probably best to continue that discussion elsewhere.

@Wizz said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

@Tinuviel said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

@Wizz said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

Like...you should care? It matters? How do I even need to explain it to you? It was, yeah, eye-opening about the community at large and even (very unfortunately) about people in my own life at the time.

Eeeeh. When it comes to fictional races... I don't really agree with you.

Why not? Aside from the obvious, like literal aliens from another planet.

Fictional races may as well be literal aliens from another planet. There are easy explanations for fictional races to not have darker, or lighter, or whatever-skinned members.

If there were no POC-like figures at all then there'd be a problem, but having fictional races that just aren't dark isn't a thing to be worried about - depending on the reasoning. If you couldn't make darker-skinned humans, that'd be worth worrying about.

@Roz said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

@Tinuviel said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

@Wizz said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

Like...you should care? It matters? How do I even need to explain it to you? It was, yeah, eye-opening about the community at large and even (very unfortunately) about people in my own life at the time.

Eeeeh. When it comes to fictional races... I don't really agree with you. In general I mean, I don't know about the specifics of WoW's races. But if you've got 'human' in your list of races, not letting them be all the colours under the sun is kind of stupid.

If all the fictional races of the world you made up just HAPPEN to be light-skinned -- that's notable.

Oh, absolutely.

ETA: Or worse. Everyone is X-colour, except the bad guys.

@Wizz said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

Like...you should care? It matters? How do I even need to explain it to you? It was, yeah, eye-opening about the community at large and even (very unfortunately) about people in my own life at the time.

Eeeeh. When it comes to fictional races... I don't really agree with you. In general I mean, I don't know about the specifics of WoW's races. But if you've got 'human' in your list of races, not letting them be all the colours under the sun is kind of stupid.

@Warma-Sheen said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

Just keep in mind there are many flavors of POC who also have many flavors of culture. A lot of people forget the distinction between skin color and culture. I know a few white dudes with chocolate frosting. I know a few chocolate dudes with white frosting. They are people too.

That's not quite my point. My point was that if we're treating these characters as real people, which is the way I do things, then a POC is going to have had different experiences than white people. This only really applies to real-world settings, of course, but I don't mean white people that act black, or black people that act white, or whatever. I meant that I don't really see how you can take all the experiences of a white dude and put them in black skin and say that's a black person.

I'm approaching this, mentally, in terms of homosexuality - since that's the only real minority I can claim to be a part of. Straight and gay people are basically the same. The experience of being a gay person is not the same as the experience of being a straight person.

@Sparks said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

That said... even if it helps with some understanding and forces you to break out of unconscious biases? It's even more important to take those experiences and really internalize that they've got nothing on what POC folks have to go through RL.

While I agree that yes, breaking biases and doing one's best to reach a better understanding of those different to one's self... I honestly don't understand how playing a POC on a MU is going to do it. A character on a MU is not at all the same as an avatar in a game world, especially if the game world is fictional. The choices you can make in a video game are exceptionally limited when compared -to that of a MU*, so playing "someone with dark skin" isn't the same as playing an actual black person from Harlem.

If you have the knowledge to accurately play a POC, with all their culture and history intact, then chances are high you already are aware of your biases enough to deal with them. If you don't, then you're likely just playing a white dude with chocolate frosting.

ETA: This is not at all to say that I wouldn't love to see more POC characters. I absolutely would.

@egg said in MU* Gripes and Peeves:

Play a POC, it wouldn't kill you.

I'm going to assume the majority of MUers are white. So they play white.
I'd much rather a hundred dull white characters than a single POC played as a stereotype.

@JinShei said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Tinuviel said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@JinShei said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

I'm an English, middle-class woman - it takes a LOT to take me there.

Now that depends on which part of England you're from/in. Middle-class in Carlisle is very different to middle-class in Kent.

Source: Was lower-middle-class near Carlisle. Says fuck.

Cotswolds, darling, and Oxford before that.

Oh please, everyone knows the Midlands don't exist.

@JinShei said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

I'm an English, middle-class woman - it takes a LOT to take me there.

Now that depends on which part of England you're from/in. Middle-class in Carlisle is very different to middle-class in Kent.

Source: Was lower-middle-class near Carlisle. Says fuck.

@JinShei said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

I stomped around the house shouting fucking fuckers.

And they said MUing would never give us real-life skills.

@Derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Tinuviel said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Tinuviel said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

ETA: Thirty copies of practically the same report? I thought that was a journal?

That and teaching. Which is what I and @JinShei do.

I would wince for you, but I'm still too relieved that marking doesn't refer to something related to furries.

You think a Skype call is bad, try doing it with a class of inattentive fifteen-year-olds.
Now you may wince.

You just haaaad to go and ruin it, huh?

Well, yes. That's what academics do when they aren't flirting with politicians and businesses for funding.

@Derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Tinuviel said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

@Derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

ETA: Thirty copies of practically the same report? I thought that was a journal?

That and teaching. Which is what I and @JinShei do.

I would wince for you, but I'm still too relieved that marking doesn't refer to something related to furries.

You think a Skype call is bad, try doing it with a class of inattentive fifteen-year-olds.
Now you may wince.

@Derp said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

ETA: Thirty copies of practically the same report? I thought that was a journal?

That and teaching. Which is what I and @JinShei do.

@Derp And then you have to hope your paper is interesting enough to be published by organisations bound only by their own rules and strictures...

@JinShei Thirty copies of practically the same report... yeah I feel you.