@derp Meh. An accusation supported by a statement from an alleged victim will get you to probable cause in a real court of law. Probable cause supports an arrest. None of these guys are "convicted" but you can sure treat 'em as suspects without abrogating any constitutionality.
I agree re: Takei but I'm also worried about it based on the Stern interview, and I'm worried that my bias in his favor is strong enough that I'm too prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's been one of my favorite TV people since I was 10.
It just floors me that this group of people on this board are so outraged and shocked by this bad behavior by these famous people. I'm shocked because of all people, you all should know by now the sheer stupidity of mankind just based on the cross-section of bullshit that MUSHers do, discussed on these very boards.
It's laughable, because it seems that, because you have some sort of celebrity crush on this person or that person, that they are above and beyond the same dark and ignorant urges and imperfections that infect the rest of the race.
We roll our eyes and say "Oh, really. Again?" each time someone mentions sexism, racism, whateverism on a game. It's barely discussed before said perpetrator is dismissed and life goes on. But, if a Celebrity gets the very same accusations, everyone loses their damned minds for weeks or months on end. There is endless wailing and flagellation.
Are these people so high and mighty that they become that different, that worshiped, that they get this Special Consideration?
@rook are you ok? I know, personally, dozens of people who have not and would not sexually assault anyone. I don't think it's weird to assume that any given person you meet or admire the work of is not a predator. The vast majority of people are not.
Why does being disappointed and sad over someone’s behavior that you had admired mean you worshiped them before? That seems a little ridiculous.
If I found out tomorrow that Gany had stalked someone across games and sent them gross @mails and unsolicited crotch pics, I would feel disappointed and sad. I’ve interacted with her and read stuff but her now for like, 6ish years? I would not presume that I know her in a deeply personal sense, I don’t. But I respect and admire her and finding out she engaged in something abhorrent to me would make me sad.
I think it’s weird that someone would find it weird that people might be disappointed or even angry when someone does something they don’t like.
It has nothing to do with worship. I usually don’t get sad when celebrities die, I don’t care if authors or friends or other admired/enjoyed folks hav different political viewpoints or whatever. I know nobody’s perfect and I don’t worship anyone.
But still, when someone does something that I find gross, it seems natural to be sad or mad or disappointed. Regardless of the personal connection there or not.
I work the equivalent of a part- to full-time job in local politics though. So the conduct of someone in my party is near and dear to me, because I am very invested. I have enjoyed following Franken’s career in politics since the beginning. Not because I idolized him. Not because I thought he was beyond human. Most people know to not grope people when posing for pictures with them.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be disappointed when someone who should know better does something as stupid and yucky as that.
@arkandel See, the Takei and Franken thing are part of my whole "If you say no, and they stop..." thing. The guy who accused Takei admits once he actually flat out said NO, Takei stopped and let him leave. Same thing with Franken, when he rehearsed that kiss. She pushed him away and said NO, that was the end of it. Now the picture - he's not actually touching or groping her. I've worn a flak vest, and you're not going to get a feel through one of those. So that picture? Tasteless, deserves the apology, and move on. Takei only has the one accuser with the story of him stopping. I heard Franken has another accuser, but I haven't gotten the details.
Most of the guys that really repulse me cough cough Moore cough cough have multiple accusers with similar stories of how they behaved. Like Louis CK - dagger in my heart that it is.
The Neil DeGrasse-Tyson accusation is heart-breaking on all counts.
"If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?"
-- Hamilton: An American Musical
@cupcake said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
The Neil DeGrasse-Tyson accusation is heart-breaking on all counts.
So, my thing with that one is... If it's valid, why is it buried?
Is it because of race? Or because of who he is?
Because either one would make me angry because her voice would be just as valid as anyone else's.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
Have you read the accuser’s blog post regarding the incident?
One reason why there hasn’t been much outcry is because the accusation arose in a blog post. To my knowledge, no one even knows if the woman was actually a grad student as she claimed.
This doesn’t mean the accusation is false, but it isn’t new, and the news outlets have been conspicuously quiet.
I like to doubt everything until my doubt can be dispelled by hard facts.
Sure, what is presented is disgusting, if it's true. It's even more disgusting if the accusations aren't true.
So I doubt.
And given the bankroll of the people against Tyson, I doubt that story just as much if not maybe more.
I like all the separation and tribalism of late in the media though, and along social media, it's cute.
@arkandel said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@ganymede said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
Unless you are Fred Rogers. That guy was the goddamn epitome of human morality.
True story. I love Fred Rogers and I try to watch/read biographies about him. From every account I can find, the man lived as selfless a life as humanly possible. Ever hear the story about when his Impala was stolen from the street in front of his apartment in Pittsburgh? It made the news, right, and the next day it was returned with a note saying effectively, "If we'd known this was Mr Rogers' car, we wouldn't have stolen it." Not even the Pope would get that consideration.
And here's the kicker: That's not even the end of the list of stories that couldn't possibly be true except it's Mr Rogers and they totally all are.
If Mr Rogers and Tim Tebow could have gotten together and started a foundation for the betterment of all mankind, the world would be unicorns and rainbows by now.
@macha said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@arkandel See, the Takei and Franken thing are part of my whole "If you say no, and they stop..." thing. The guy who accused Takei admits once he actually flat out said NO, Takei stopped and let him leave. Same thing with Franken, when he rehearsed that kiss. She pushed him away and said NO, that was the end of it. Now the picture - he's not actually touching or groping her. I've worn a flak vest, and you're not going to get a feel through one of those. So that picture? Tasteless, deserves the apology, and move on.
This is absolutely my line, too.
There's a whole continuity of behavior here, of degrees of consent (particularly if you want to make the standard 'enthusiastic') and its violation, from being assumed when it shouldn't be to its explicit refusal being ignored... to premeditated drugging of people so that consent is not even on the table. The fact that all of it can be lumped under some broad umbrella of 'sexual misconduct' doesn't make it all remotely equivalent behavior, legally or morally. Frankly, I'm inclined to think more positively hearing about someone doing something unwise, getting rebuffed, and stopping (and owning up to the initial ill-conceived action) than I am to want to skewer them. We're all human and we all err, but those are pretty much the moments that separate the redeemable from those beyond.
Additionally re: Takei (and I'm repeating something I saw elsewhere, but agree with): He's 80. His first sexual experience was as a victim of child molestation, but he doesn't view it as such, and I can only imagine this is because there was no open, accepted, healthy avenue for him to come into his sexuality. When all of gay culture was underground because it was criminal, it's not surprising that the clandestine behavior people were forced to engage in might endanger proper consent practices that we're still struggling to normalize today. This is how I took his Howard Stern stuff, particularly, as him trying to be honest about his behavior but not being able to gracefully put it in context.
So, taken alongside his activism, I'm willing to give the guy a lot of benefit of the doubt. I will be very sad if it turns out he was more like Spacey, if we find out there's a larger history or one of him abusing his power specifically.
Actually admitting and apologizing goes a long way, to me, to keep Franken not on my shit-list.
"She's a liar" makes me almost more angry then anything else in these situations.
Now, for those people wanting proof... how the heck is someone supposed to prove that she got hit on by a 30yo man when she was 14, 40 years ago?
How does someone prove that she got drugged and raped while unconscious a decade ago?
Any 'evidence' is long gone... and because our culture is such as it is, sooo many women don't feel safe reporting so the evidence could be gathered.
@ixokai As someone who's been assaulted, and spoke out when it happened, and basically got told "boys will be boys" and "but he's such a nice guy" by my own fucking father....
I have a pretty low 'burden of proof' expectation in any of these situations. Because I know from personal experience that it's almost impossible to prove and unless you have physical evidence, there's a high likelihood you won't be believed. (And even then....)
The only one that I'd like to be met in the case of very old stories and accusations against someone who is now in the public eye is pretty much "Did they mention this to someone -- anyone -- before it was in the newspapers?"
If the answer to that question is yes, then I tend to believe they're not doing it for money, fame, or revenge.
Ohh, and while I'm in here:
He's a piece of shit, no matter how much 90s teen you swooned over him in "My So-Called Life".
https://whatiswrongwith.me/Mia
There were never any good old days. They are today. They are tomorrow. It's a stupid thing we say, cursing tomorrow with sorrow. -- Gogol Bordello
Re: Takei. He said he always played the 'naughty gay grandpa' on the Howard Stern show which, having listened to Stern when he was on regular radio, is completely believable to me.
@aria I feel you there. When my sister and I went to the cops over something that happened to us, they threatened us with slander and perjury charges instead of doing their fucking job.
I would like to think things have changed for the better since the late 80's, but then I wake up.
Bill Cosby.
I grew up with him. He did work for children's programming, education, applying his PhD, throwing a positive image to millions of households with Fat Albert and with The Cosby Show. Most of his stand-up humor was pretty goddamn funny, too.
But now? The man should be in jail. I think he will be lucky if there is a second mistrial.
Louis CK I believe (and I will be the first to change this if I'm wrong) is sincerely apologetic and is looking to make a change. We shall see.
But Cosby? I hope he pays. With cash. A lot of it.
@dontpanda said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
And here's the kicker: That's not even the end of the list of stories that couldn't possibly be true except it's Mr Rogers and they totally all are.
@arkandel said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@dontpanda said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
And here's the kicker: That's not even the end of the list of stories that couldn't possibly be true except it's Mr Rogers and they totally all are.
Exactly right.
There's a great twitter thread of a dude who ran into Mr Rogers in an elevator. You can read the thread here.
Beware of dusty rooms when you read it, though.
I will admit that the only celebrity that I actually cried on reading that they’d died was Fred Rogers. By all accounts he seemed like the real deal.
@cupcake said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
The Neil DeGrasse-Tyson accusation is heart-breaking on all counts.
So, my thing with that one is... If it's valid, why is it buried?
Is it because of race? Or because of who he is?
Because either one would make me angry because her voice would be just as valid as anyone else's.
