Game Restarts
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@wildbaboons said in Game Restarts:
@arkandel From a practical stand point I would think restarting is a lot less effort if you've got the code, grid, etc already built and ready to go.
If that's the case then I definitely think it's a bad reason to pick this approach over any other.
Basically I can at least understand nostalgia; you had fun playing a certain theme or in a specific setting and you're trying to recreate it. It's not perfect but it can come from a good place.
Any major decisions based on "what's the least effort I can make and still have a port up?" are misguided at best. Hint: Running games takes a lot of effort! They are huge timesinks, and cutting corners is a big red flag that staff don't want to invest in their own MU*.... and if they don't care enough to then why would we?
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@arkandel Nostalgia certainly would play a part too.. but also people that would rather focus their time with the effort of running a game in stead of spending months trying to get a game to run.
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@wildbaboons said in Game Restarts:
@arkandel Nostalgia certainly would play a part too.. but also people that would rather focus their time with the effort of running a game in stead of spending months trying to get a game to run.
The most time consuming part of any game is the code - that's what actually can actually take months depending on how much you want to customize... and there is no need to bring an existing game back verbatim in order to reuse its code. A game-runner can run a completely different nWoD Vampire+Werewolf game reusing another's setup with the exact same code, as long as they come up with a new theme and populate the wiki with it.
If they don't because it's too much work then I personally wouldn't play there. That's the fun part, the portion of the exercise that stretches their creative muscles and shows me as a potential player where the heart of their theme is; skimping on it doesn't simply tell me they are lazy, which from a certain point of view I wish more staff were, it informs me they are uncreative, which is a fatal condition since it will infect the playerbase immediately.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel there are different kinds of creativity though. Someone can be great at telling stories and crappy at world building and/or game design. I think that’s part of the reason we see so many existing themes used vs original ones. The other reasons of course are name recognition and familiarity, both of which apply to game restarts too.
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@arkandel That may or may not be true.
Code could be easy.
Writing tons of theme and/or setting information, plus story plus everything else?
That can take a long ass time
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@arkandel said in Game Restarts:
Is it just nostalgia? Can it be something else?
For me the draw of a restarted game would be less nostalgia and more hey they likely have some of the kinks worked out. I would be a lot more likely to join a restart even of one I hadn't played before than a brand new game, mainly for the same reason I would be more likely to pick up the fifth novel an author wrote than the first.
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@arkandel said in Game Restarts:
The most time consuming part of any game is the code - that's what actually can actually take months depending on how much you want to customize... and there is no need to bring an existing game back verbatim in order to reuse its code. A game-runner can run a completely different nWoD Vampire+Werewolf game reusing another's setup with the exact same code, as long as they come up with a new theme and populate the wiki with it.
...yeahhhhhhno. As others have mentioned, there is a huge amount of work in writing up a good setting and concept with any meat on its bones at all. Using an existing property (like WoD or Firefly/etc.) essentially imports a lot of information that otherwise someone has to write up in some detail.
Beyond that, you generally only have to write the code once for most things -- unless you want to tweak to add something or it wasn't as ideally conceived as it may have been at the outset. You will never stop answering questions about a setting and world as they arise, often requiring additional notes and information added for all to reference.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Game Restarts:
...yeahhhhhhno. As others have mentioned, there is a huge amount of work in writing up a good setting and concept with any meat on its bones at all. Using an existing property (like WoD or Firefly/etc.) essentially imports a lot of information that otherwise someone has to write up in some detail.
That work in writing up a good setting and concept with any meat on its bones?
That's the game. That's the whole point!
This is obviously just my opinion, but if staff wants to avoid setting up their own game then I'm typically uninterested, unless they also put in something else that makes it clear they are in fact investing in their own MUSH.
So for example when The Descent was relaunched they added a ton of theme, new Bloodlines, and there were plans in motion to add a resource system as well. Use, the basic idea coming from a previous game was reused but I was pretty confident it wasn't done to cut corners and avoid doing work, but staff taking an idea they liked and giving it another shot. That's great.
But if - again, for example - Coin gave me permission to relaunch Eldritch and for the sake of saving myself the effort I just took the code, grid, wiki... everything about it and started it on a new server then I don't know what good that does anyone.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel said in Game Restarts:
@surreality said in Game Restarts:
...yeahhhhhhno. As others have mentioned, there is a huge amount of work in writing up a good setting and concept with any meat on its bones at all. Using an existing property (like WoD or Firefly/etc.) essentially imports a lot of information that otherwise someone has to write up in some detail.
That work in writing up a good setting and concept with any meat on its bones?
That's the game. That's the whole point!
Yes, which is why it is not a minor effort or something that takes less time than code as you claimed in the section I quoted. Code can take months, sure. A good setting and world? Can very easily take years. The most time-consuming part of setup really isn't the code.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Game Restarts:
Yes, which is why it is not a minor effort or something that takes less time than code as you claimed in the section I quoted. Code can take months, sure. A good setting and world? Can very easily take years. The most time-consuming part of setup really isn't the code.
Hey, I never said it was a minor effort. If I implied it I apologize, as it wasn't my intention.
But for most games creating custom code does take considerably longer than writing theme. That's not as obvious these days since we have the option of using big chunks of existing code thanks to the efforts of coders like @Thenomain, @faraday, @Griatch etc, which trims down that time very considerably, but at the same time it's the very rare exception that a game-runner will take multiple months to do writeups of their setups and create the wiki assuming they are actively working on doing so.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel said in Game Restarts:
But for most games creating custom code does take considerably longer than writing theme. That's not as obvious these days since we have the option of using big chunks of existing code thanks to the efforts of coders like @Thenomain, @faraday, @Griatch etc, which trims down that time very considerably, but at the same time it's the very rare exception that a game-runner will take multiple months to do writeups of their setups and create the wiki assuming they are actively working on doing so.
I really don't see this at all, or think this is the case at all.
When I look at the games that are around currently, there is plenty of information about their setting/etc., albeit most of them rely on other core material. The one that immediately comes to mind that doesn't rely on existing material is 8th Sea, which has a lot of information about the (original) world available on the wiki.
Even BITN, which came together very quickly because for some reason 'make it fast' was some kind of weird goal for some of the people on the team (I
you all but this was super stupid), and is the best example of a 'make it fast' game had the culture and information about every single main grid room documented on the wiki. Fallcoast and Fate's Harvest have plenty of information about their settings and the unique creatures that inhabit them.I am sincerely just not seeing what you're seeing here.
Oh fucking well.
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@arkandel said in Game Restarts:
But for most games creating custom code does take considerably longer than writing theme.
Yeah that’s been my experience as well. Game runners spend way more time on wiki and theme material than code. When the code takes ages it’s either because of lack of a coder with spare time (or lack of a coder period) or some extravagant vision for coded systems. The code for most games simply isn’t that complicated.
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@arkandel said in Game Restarts:
But if - again, for example - Coin gave me permission to relaunch Eldritch and for the sake of saving myself the effort I just took the code, grid, wiki... everything about it and started it on a new server then I don't know what good that does anyone.
I would assume in this scenario that you wouldn't just get the came up and working and then walk away... you'd actually run the game at that point. I get what you mean though, restarting a game just for the same of saving effort doesn't make sense, it's got to be from a combination of things.. but because its easier is a valid motivation to be in the mix
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@lithium said in Game Restarts:
@arkandel That may or may not be true.
Code could be easy.
Writing tons of theme and/or setting information, plus story plus everything else?
That can take a long ass time
tbh setting stuff is super easy unless you're doing something totally original or just, like, decided that what's really needed is the silmarillion of crossover fanfic or whatever
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I am a fan of amnesia-based restarts.
Nothing says TS Roulette like losing one's memory.
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@haven said in Game Restarts:
I am a fan of amnesia-based restarts.
Nothing says TS Roulette like losing one's memory.
The number of cheesy pickup lines that immediately leapt into my brain upon reading this makes me sincerely wish this was a thing. (As in, IC, everyone in town gets a regular brainwipe on some level, and is aware of this, but not of what's been wiped.)
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@prototart I guess it comes down to what you are. I am a coder. Code is relatively easy. I may struggle with something unusual, but, I can usually figure it out and I enjoy coding. It is a fun thought exercise to me because I am not a psychocoder yet who would get bored with it.
Writing is also fun, but, detail is /super/ important, so that everyone has the best information for the setting/theme/rules. In my opinion it's more important than code. So it takes longer for me.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
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@lithium Seconded.
I am a spectacularly craptastic coder, and code is still faster to get done than writing out the relevant ins and outs of a built world.
If this is "quick and easy", (generic) you are a fantastic and prolific writer at a professional level, are using well-developed source material that you're relying on people already knowing in order to play, or (generic) you are absolutely slap-dashing the fuck out of things to the extent that (generic) you're definitely doing it wrong.
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I don't think there's any kind of rules there, people have way different goals and kinds of games they want to run. And a lot will approach stuff in stages. Like, we need X code and theme done before we start, then ideally Y done before we really get going, and Z somewhere in a nebulous future. I just think people get tripped up when they aren't realistic about what they want to have done or the work that it takes to get there, whether it's code or story.
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@arkandel
It's highly dependent. For a couple of the games I was involved with the restart of, it was either 1. due to unfixable issues or 2. the game ended without good resolution, and players were interested in picking up immediately from where they left off.
