Class/Society Systems, WoD
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Okay I'll take a stab at this new forum catagory.
Disclaimer: None of this is set in stone, this is really me throwing ideas at a wall to see what stick and what eggs are rotten. Srsly sky is not falling.
So as many of you know, Sonder and I are working on a game set in Miami Florida, with some elements of alternate present (which is what WoD is anyhow). One of the ideas I've been toying around with is factions and neighborhoods and influence on a basic character level, things to define you, and also get invested in.
In L&L games, Historical Games and even oChangeling, there are usually class systems, Noble vs Commoner, but in 2018 we still have that. High Society, Middle Class, Poor, Homeless.
So the idea is that each character in theory belongs to one of these areas, and that we could give people various bonuses/access/flaws based on which level of society they live at. A member of High Society would probably never be arrested for long, unless they did something incredibly terrible and obvious. They will not however, fare well in many neighborhoods and will stick out like a sore thumb just about anywhere below middle class. Meanwhile a guy 'from the streets' will have all sorts of connections and access to more low class and criminal places a member of high society wouldn't.
Another Disclaimer: These are broad strokes I am painting with above and below, no offence intended
Neighborhoods: This can be something small, but a benefit of having a large grid is that neighborhoods and the like will be more than one grid square. The idea that I am tossing around is small bonuses, and perhaps even influence (social bonuses?) in the neighborhoods/areas where you live. Swamp People in the rich gated community will stick out, and be known not to be local, and vice versa. AMybe you're known as the guy that can get you the best black market pharmaceuticals in little Havana, you have a certain clout here that you wouldnt outside of your neighborhood.
Goals: Investment. More Variety. Fun systems for people that like those little systems. More room for people to have niches. No one has to be the best Back Alley Doctor in the whole City, but darn if you arent the best in yer neighborhood.
What I need:
Thoughts and Feedback. Flaws? Expanded ideas? Actual Systems. -
This looks like a good idea to work from. I think just about anything that allows people to have a more customized niche -- which becomes even more important on a very large game, when the TR/FC chain has historically been and this one will likely be the same -- is a good idea.
Players like to have something special about them, or something they are known for. This isn't always a snowflake extreme; it's a very natural human thing. This kind of breakdown could foster that very well from how you've presented it, and I think it will be interesting to see how it works out.
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One thing I would include is the ability for people with the proper skills/powers to spoof a class they are not. After all that is what a con man or professional spy does in a lot of stories, heck even Sherlock Holmes would disguise himself as a beggar to ferret out information in places where he would stick out.
This would also have the added benefit of giving tangible benefits to the subterfuge skill while side stepping the usual social skills arguments. -
@thatguythere Yeah, supernatural things do things supernaturally, and people can lie/present themselves in defferent ways potentially.. I'll definately make a note for this kinda thing.
A couple related ideas were to uncouple actual resource scores from it (white trash hitting the lotto aint gonna be high society, at least not over night)
Another idea was to give mortal types bonus influence in these area in cg.
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@wretched You could potentially make something like a parallel status/influence merit that people settled in a certain area could take on this one, as a basic, with a point or two granted for their home base in CG. Then something akin to '<other location> Credentials' or similar for 'everywhere that isn't their home base'. So the rich doctor that has hometown cred in richville that does a lot of pro bono no-strings medical aid or runs a free clinic in poorville may have a few points of 'is respected for <reason> in this part of town'.
ETA: I was considering something like this for something, so... naturally I like this idea.
If I can find my actual notes at some point, I'll pass along what I had if it's of any help. -
Another idea: you could make Resources beyond 1 or 2 chargen only. Same with Status. If you want to be a big mover in a group or super rich, that kind of thing often takes years of work (not weeks or months), and people should have to make some real choices about what their toon's actual focus areas are. Do you want the money, the connections, the cool abilities, or the powers?
ETA: You could also put a cap on the total of these things you can have. If you are so busy being a runner for Status, maybe your finances take a hit. Or overtime at your job costs you face. Sanctity of Merits can handle this, but it should still be a slow process. Either way, it still retains the feel that a character cannot do everything.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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How would Organized Crime and local Crime figures who present as upper class get represented? They are neither here nor there in either neighborhood.
Just something to think about.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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Another thing to consider -- this is veering a little off the main question but is tied to @Derp's idea -- is to have certain things included in alt limits.
It's another of those things I wanted to try if I did something, for instance: 'no more than one of your characters can have Resources at 4+'. (I was going to allow 16+ for age, so another was 'no more than one character under 18', if this helps clarify the idea here.)
This wasn't tied to what kind of character it was or any other limit, but was basically a means of preventing someone from making 'and this is my stupidly rich X, my stupidly rich Y, and my stupidly rich Z!' No, pick your X, your Y, or your Z to be the rich one -- doesn't matter which, but it's going to end up being just the one.
It strikes me as a pretty simple means of preventing certain types of oversaturation that get a little ridiculous and skew things in peculiar ways on a game without locking down too hard on alt counts or creating other complications.
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A lot of this is represented in how Status is written up in the NWoD 1e core blue book. You buy it as Status (Thing), and it gives examples of dots representing clout in a way that I feel gets glossed over. I think it's a good starting point to work from.
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@derp said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
Another idea: you could make Resources beyond 1 or 2 chargen only. Same with Status. If you want to be a big mover in a group or super rich, that kind of thing often takes years of work (not weeks or months), and people should have to make some real choices about what their toon's actual focus areas are.
I feel like this would need to be accompanied by a Haunted Memories style timer/justification system for spending XP in general, or it would lead to a lot of awkward questions about why it takes years of in-game time to get a good enough job to buy a late-model car (Resources 3) or a house (4), but over there in a different part of the game people are becoming multiple-degree black belts or reaching Gnosis 5 in a month a two.
I'm not necessarily opposed to going in that direction, mind you; I think that approach has some benefits. It might be challenging to come up with a sufficiently sophisticated approach to handle it well, though.
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Oh, I totally agree. I was just telling @Surreality that I think timers and justifications need to be a thing. Growth in certain areas just should not happen quickly, nor happen out of the blue. I personally believe that it was something of a mistake moving away from such to start with, and would LOVE to see a game where they are a thing again, if for no other reason than to make it feel like more organic growth.
The system would get complicated, sure, but I personally feel that the bigger the advantage (generally), the longer it should take, and the harder it should be to get your ducks in a row. Both Resources and Status have been overlooked heavily in those areas, and I think we should be trying to come up with ways to make it balance competing areas in their life. Especially in CoD games, because that sort of thing is baked into the system now too (Touchstones, etc).
I wholly believe that this would at least be a great experiment at making class and social standing actually matter. A Status 5 member of, say, a Mage Order just isn't going to have time to stay the VP of that multinational trading firm unless he is neglecting one or the other, most likely, and he definitely won't have time to fly to New Zealand for the filming of his next movie.
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Limiting it to four classes ("High Society, Middle Class, Poor, Homeless") seems limited. Maybe offer sub classes/speciality for each flavor? High Society = Old Money, Noveau Riche, Celebrity? Middle Class = Upper Middle Class, Solid Middle Class, Lower Middle Class. Poor = Working Class, Slum Dweller, Almost Homeless? Homeless = Hobo, Addict, Destitute?
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@bobotron said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
A lot of this is represented in how Status is written up in the NWoD 1e core blue book. You buy it as Status (Thing), and it gives examples of dots representing clout in a way that I feel gets glossed over. I think it's a good starting point to work from.
Yeah, I think I'd much rather see status better implemented in games before complicated new mechanics are created.
@derp said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
Oh, I totally agree. I was just telling @Surreality that I think timers and justifications need to be a thing. Growth in certain areas just should not happen quickly, nor happen out of the blue. I personally believe that it was something of a mistake moving away from such to start with, and would LOVE to see a game where they are a thing again, if for no other reason than to make it feel like more organic growth.
Timers and justifications add a level of bureaucracy to XP gain/spending that many people have said they dislike. If you want to make character growth more natural and slower, you can do this by just lowering the amount of XP that's out there and how quickly it can be gained. This will also be frustrating to some players, yes, but lower-XP games have other advantages as well. One of their best advantages is that they force players to choose niches and so players have to work together to make any meaningful contribution to the game.
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@derp With the xp system and the scope of the game, putting hard chargen limits on resources is unlikely to fly. Nor do i think players would be cool with itr (I know most times I have a business of any sort, players will come and get jobs for resource raises,) And I personally dislike chargen only limits for the most part, just because it inhibits growth. I like growth, i just prefer it to be slow.
@misadventure said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
How would Organized Crime and local Crime figures who present as upper class get represented? They are neither here nor there in either neighborhood.
Crime and such would be a faction separate from Social Class or neighborhoods, tho Gangs and other Orgs could be tied to certain neighborhoods. You dont have to be part of the 42nd Street Kings to be well respected in little Havana, but it might give you some clout when dealing with the gang in the area. Definately something to think on, how the various factions would interact with one another.
@bobotron said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
A lot of this is represented in how Status is written up in the NWoD 1e core blue book. You buy it as Status (Thing), and it gives examples of dots representing clout in a way that I feel gets glossed over. I think it's a good starting point to work from.
Yesssss. We would really like for these things to matter, and if they become part of the base game, it might? maybe even a couple free dots of it in chargen. Maybe a few more freebies for mortals only.
@autumn @Lisse24 That is another conversation i am having with Sonder. It ties into one of the things that really gets to me, and that is people jumping certain stats all in one go. Strength takes time to build, so does learning how tyo be manipulative, or punch more gooder. HM's system I liked (After buying the stat you must wait X time before buying it again. I never like the 'spend it and wait for it to take effect)
Nothing is set in stone, but if we did do something like that we'd have to find the balance between onerous wait times and so quick we might as well not have it. We are aiming to have Xp as automated as possible, so in the best of worlds such timers would be automated as well. As for Justifications, some stats will always need it but most wont. That much shouldn't change
@kay said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
Limiting it to four classes ("High Society, Middle Class, Poor, Homeless") seems limited. Maybe offer sub classes/speciality for each flavor? High Society = Old Money, Noveau Riche, Celebrity? Middle Class = Upper Middle Class, Solid Middle Class, Lower Middle Class. Poor = Working Class, Slum Dweller, Almost Homeless? Homeless = Hobo, Addict, Destitute?
That might be a bit more than we would like to have, I'd like it to have some depth but not so over complicated we lose the forest for the trees. Probably n ot sub classes but many of these would be 'good examples of what fits in each.'
New Goal: Exactly how large and what specific bonuses one gets based on each. How they interact with others. More reading to do. I love all this feedback.,
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@wretched The first thing you'd need is a buy-in. A lot of of the things you seem to be after would be really difficult to code or put in mechanics (such as the chance of being in legal trouble, for example) so you'd be relying on the factions themselves to bring that to life. That's a tough sell, not because it's unreasonable but because it takes a while for the game's culture to get where you want it to be, and in the mean time you need to feed them something else to keep them around long enough for that to develop.
It's a good general concept, but I think you'll need to flesh it out more. As it stands it still needs that 'ah HAH!' moment of inspiration.
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IMO, you will need to decide how realistic you want your representations to be, not just in their isolated nuances ("what does it mean to be pooooooooor?") but also in their intersectional nuances ("what does it mean to be white and poor? what does it means to be a middle-class Latinoin a gang-ridden neighborhood? what does it mean to be a wealthy African-American in a world --class wise--dominated by white people?")
I don't know if you want these intersectional nuances or not, (maybe you just want to leave that bit up to your players on a case-by-case basis) but you definitely should know if you want them and how much you want them represented in your system.
Also, as an aside, and I don't say this because anyone has harped on it yet, but sort of as an introduction to the topic: "balance" is a myth. If you're going to have different mechanical effects based on class, then you should--IMO--not worry about it being balanced. White men with money have it better than women of color without it (to name two hugely distant extremes), and trying to balance this ("well, people with money get +2 in X, but poor people get +2 in Y") is disingenuous. It implies people play a certain class for the mechanical bonuses (some people might) instead of the theme (I hope all people would do this latter).
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@wretched I really personally dislike timers on XP spending. The main reason for me is that I am one of those few players who is not motivated by XP. I couldn't tell you how much unused XP I have on any single character at the moment. I wouldn't even be in the right ballpark. I don't know if it's under 10 or over 100. I suspect it's more likely to be over 100, just based on how long it's been since I thought about XP, but I couldn't say for certain.
Because of this lackadaisical approach to XP about once every 4-5 months, I realize, "I need to spend some of this stuff!" And so, yes, I will end up jumping skills several at once, but typically I only do this with stuff I've been rping about for a long time and fits my character. But I can't spend XP this way in a timer system.
In a timer system, I need to be much more active in my monitoring of XP. I end up being more focused on XP than otherwise. Look, you'll always get people hyper focused on their pretend points, but I don't think you want to create an atmosphere that heightens it. I think you want to downplay it.
If you don't want people progressing too quickly, don't have a lot of XP floating around, but don't use artificial limits on XP spends.
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Status updates tied to grid locations? Sold.
XP spend wait times? Nah, son. That's the path of evil. Maybe that's just me though. I wait for stuff in my regular day to day. You think I want to actually wait for a more defined six pack and super sense of smell? No. No, I do not.
Absolutely love a grid reflected class system though.
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@royal @Lisse24 Re: XP timers. Not to get too far from the original topic (factions and neighborhoods whee), but I want to clarify what I mean by Xp timers that we are talking about.
So you wanna buy up yer strength. You do yer +xps me buy strength +1. Bam done. But now there is a timer before you can buy that strength again. It's not a long timer, maybe a couple weeks.
I know WoD Mu Culture has changed over the last buncha years, away from justifying your stats and all that. TR in particular opened a Pandora's Box of 'get everything you want now now now with no justifications i want, you give!' but it's really struck a blow to measured growth or any sort of reflection of reality. And no, were never gonna get real reality, because actually becoming a body builder takes years and years and years. But i do not think it is unreasonable to ask players not to go from str 1 to 5 overnight. Yes you 'earned' that XP, but there should be some semblance of reasonable structure to spending it in a setting that is supposed to be at least partially based on the real world. It takes time to learn things and get better at things. You don't go from a sedentary tub-o-lard to a glistening Adonis, Or from a Paint Chip connoisseur to a leading astrophysicist over the weekend. Even if you have the 500 xp just sitting in yer back pocket. I dont believe that asking someone to just... spread it out a bit is too much to ask.
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@lisse24 said in Class/Society Systems, WoD:
If you don't want people progressing too quickly, don't have a lot of XP floating around, but don't use artificial limits on XP spends.
I'm normally on board with you, but Fallcoast's system allows you to move up so damn fast and quickly that I can justify a spend-throttle. On a game like The Descent, it's kind of pointless given the slow progression.
