Comics Stuff

Coin · Jul 2, 2015, 6:28 PM

Pretty much. I can't access youtube at work, but if you haven't, you should look at The Death and Return of Superman.

Trundlebot · Jul 2, 2015, 7:32 PM

It's worth pointing out that male and female athletic performance gaps basically boil down to hormones, not, fundamentally, skeletal or muscular structure. Basically, testosterone is a hell of a drug.
Very few of the people that have, for instance, won medals of honor were exceptionally beefy and strong. Tons of cases of of exceptionally brave and successful soldiering for instance are from tiny wiry dudes who are certainly not outside the range of normal female physical capability. When they're able to or force a way to fight plenty of women have historically excelled on the field of combat- and more so if we're including like generals for instance. Like Lyudmila Pavlichenko, Joan of Arc, Boudica, the Trung Sisters, etc.. So basically, historically success at fighting and leadership in battle isn't determined by who can throw a ball the farthest as it turns out.
Also while in the real world, the most effective natural performance enhancing drug is testosterone, that really isn't relevant once you start adding mystical mumbo jumbo, alien super strength physiology, etc., etc..Like expecting the Hulk to be automatically stronger than She-Hulk per se isn't really based on anything but laziness of expectations. I won't say sexist ones, but, you know. Sexist ones.

So yeah, #BioFacts is a silly reason to act incredulous that girl superheroes might beat up boy superheroes or be better at the job.

eta: That may not even be exactly what anyone itt is doing but I encounter this argument enough that I'm going to rant against it anyway

Ganymede · Jul 2, 2015, 7:29 PM

@Roz said:

I think "let her try" is a pretty damn good philosophy. Because sure people love to say big things like "men are just built better at X than women," and maybe they are on average, but it also means there's a lot of instances where women are just not allowed to compete or qualify at the same level EVEN IF they're capable of it.

It's a good philosophy in sports. Golf was much more popular when Annika Sorenstam was around.

HelloRaptor · Jul 2, 2015, 9:10 PM

@Trundelbot

Like expecting the Hulk to be automatically stronger than She-Hulk per se isn't really based on anything but laziness of expectations.

I think most people who even care enough who's stronger to think about it probably expect the Hulk is stronger beecause She-Hulk keeps her intelligence and personality, and the ability to transform at will, and traditionally with Hulks strength tends to be based on how much of that shit you lose. The smarter, more rational versions of Bruce banner's Hulk have all been much weaker than the normal Hulk, possibly excepting Maestro but he uses villain rules anyway.

So yeah, #BioFacts is a silly reason to act incredulous that girl superheroes might beat up boy superheroes or be better at the job.

eta: That may not even be exactly what anyone itt is doing but I encounter this argument enough that I'm going to rant against it anyway

It wasn't what anyone was doing, no. Anyone who would get incredulous at that is just a bad comic book fan, because there's no shortage of beatdowns that have happened in either direction.

Trundlebot · Jul 2, 2015, 10:25 PM

Fair enough on both.

ThatGuyThere · Jul 2, 2015, 10:34 PM

Also it has been shown in story lines most notably by Kurt Busiek in the Avengers with his Hunt For She Hulk it showed how strong she can get when completely losing her shit, including fighting Hulk to a virtual stand still.

Arkandel · Jul 3, 2015, 2:39 AM

What I dislike about character replacements in comics is that they sometimes feel - to me - like a writer's pet project. Someone wants to try and create a 'better Spider-man' so Ben Reilly or whoever comes along to pick up the mantle.

If a writer has the chops to make a character interesting enough for me to read about, publish a comic about them. A separate one. Maybe they're right and I will, maybe they're not and I won't, but sticking them in a familiar suit won't do the trick; if I pick up an issue of Spider-man there better be Peter Parker in it.

And I say that accepting the hypocrisy in that I'm quite fond of Ultimate Spider-man, and in that I really liked Tim Drake than any other incarnation of Robin.

tragedyjones · Jul 2, 2015, 11:05 PM

@HelloRaptor Exactly, plus Maestro has the excuse of spending nearly a century becoming gamma-saturated, having stayed Hulked Out for longer than Banner has been alive.

And @Arkandel , Tim Drake IS the Best Robin. Dick Grayson is pretty cool but was better post-Robin really.

Trundlebot · Jul 3, 2015, 12:06 AM

What about that Frank Miler one that talked like she was from A Clockwork Orange

Silver · Jul 3, 2015, 2:39 AM

@Arkandel said:

And I say that accepting the hypocrisy in that I'm quite fond of Ultimate Spider-man, and in that I really liked Tim Drake than any other incarnation of Robin.

Certain characters like Robin or the Flash were successfully made into legacy characters. Notably the person who took up the mantle of Robin next was acutely aware of the previous one and his history and most particularly in the case of Tim Drake, maintained a high regard for his predecessors. Similarly Barry Allen was Wally West's hero, and both of them looked up to Jay Garrick.

When you have a Ben Reilly it's basically just a cuckoo scenario where someone is replacing your Spider-Man with Folger's Crystals. That's cheap. Almost the same thing happened when Jean-Paul Valley became Batman for a minute. That was a blatantly temporary and empty replacement and even DC didn't look like they planned for that to last.

tragedyjones · Jul 3, 2015, 2:43 AM

In all honesty, in the 90s, almost all major heroes were replaced with GRIM AND GRITTY ALTERNATIVES.

Batman replaced Bruce with Azrael.
Superman "died" and was replaced with Superboy, Eradicator, Cyborg Superman and Steel
Thor was replaced with Thunderstrike
Captain America was replaced with US Agent
Iron Man was replaced with War Machine (Rhodes had actually assumed the mantle of Iron Man multiple times, the major gritty aspect was the giant guns)
Spider-Man was cloned and you got Ben Reilly/Scarlet Spider, Kaine, and some other crap

Silver · Jul 3, 2015, 2:50 AM

@tragedyjones Yeah all of these things have happened multiple times. The only successful "replacements" really are more continuing legacy than replacement. In those cases I think of the aforementioned Robin and the Flash but also Blue Beetle, Dr. Fate, and the myriad Green Lanterns to name a few.

Notably DC does this better than Marvel, but I think it's because DC responds to the passage of time more than Marvel does. After all Peter Parker should be pushing 70 by now except that Marvel kind of ignores the fact that it's been decades since they started writing Spider-Man stories.